--- Log opened Tue Dec 29 00:00:01 2009
--- Day changed Tue Dec 29 2009
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01:16 < napsy> Can I pass a list.List() through a channel?
01:17 < napsy> I try reading from a channel with mylist := <- ch but I
get "implicit assignment of list.List field 'front' in function argument"
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01:17 < timmcd> is dynamic loading in the to-do?
01:17 < timmcd> It'd be fun to write an implementation of lisp/scheme
01:17 < timmcd> that has total interoperability with Go
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01:20 < dho> timmcd: long term
01:20 < dho> napsy: how is your channel declared
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01:21 < napsy> dho: var ch = make(chan list.List);
01:21 < napsy> dho: it's global
01:23 < napsy> dho: any ideas?
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01:26 < dho> napsy: sorry, semi-afk
01:26 < napsy> ok np
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01:27 < dho> napsy: can you paste a simple program demonstrating this
somewhere?
01:28 < napsy> just a moment
01:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EQN7 by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/crypto/ -- Symmetric changes to md4.go as for md5.go.
01:28 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EQN9 by [Robert Griesemer] in
go/src/cmd/godoc/ -- Fix bug in godoc tab conversion filter:
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01:30 < napsy> dho: http://gopaste.org/view/IgG51
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01:32 < dho> hm
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02:46 < KeystoneIce360> Hey folks.
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02:46 < KeystoneIce360> Anything going on in here?
02:46 < ultraquix> Howdy.
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02:46 < KeystoneIce360> How are you ultraquix?
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02:53 < jackman> what exactly do you mean by 'going on'?
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02:54 < jackman> there's a lot of splitting...
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03:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EWuc by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
remove all references to gobType() from the decoder.
03:15 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5EWuh by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- add
a debugging printer to the gob package.
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04:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5F0EB by [Nigel Tao] in go/src/pkg/image/jpeg/
-- JPEG decoder now handles RST (restart) markers.
04:32 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5F0EE by [Nigel Tao] in go/src/pkg/image/png/
-- PNG decoder now handles transparent paletted images.
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07:06 < asyncster> does anyone know if string slicing in go is fast?  or
does it allocate new memory and copy contents from the old string ?
07:07 < JBeshir> asyncster: It's fast.
07:07 < JBeshir> Slices of a string are always backed by the same storage as
the original string.
07:07 < asyncster> ok cool
07:08 < asyncster> btw, has anyone built a different template package for
go?
07:08 < asyncster> or do people just use the template package?
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09:47 < Krishna_> hi
09:47 < Krishna_> i am very new to golang
09:47 < Krishna_> i have some quest on acrh
09:48 < Krishna_> go will support oops
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09:58 < Krishna_> or not
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10:52 < napsy> Hello.  Does go provide map() like in functional language
that can apply a function to all elements of a given array?
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11:04 < dagle> napsy: yes.
11:05 < dagle> napsy: http://golang.org/pkg/exp/iterable/#Iterable.Map
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11:19 < napsy> dagle: cool, thanks
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11:36 < jA_cOp> with the http server, how can I register a pattern for all
requests?
11:36 < jA_cOp> any request*
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11:37 < jA_cOp> It says I can do subfolders with a trailing slash, but using
"//" doesn't work for handling all root requests
11:38 < jA_cOp> it just produces this for all pages, without calling my
handler: <a href="/">Moved Permanently</a>.
11:49 < jA_cOp> ah I'm supposed to use the Serve functions, I guess
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12:14 < jA_cOp> can cgo deal with function pointers
12:14 < jA_cOp> like if there was a C function that took a function pointer
as an argument, can I pass a Go function?
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12:22 < jessta> jA_cOp: nope
12:23 < jA_cOp> Ah
12:23 < jessta> jA_cOp: Go has a different calling convention
12:23 < jA_cOp> hm, so is there another way of making C code able to call a
Go function?
12:26 < jessta> a few people have a few workarounds
12:27 < jessta> I'm not sure what they were
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12:29 < jessta> but I think they were something like having the go code call
C functions to poll for results
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12:38 < jA_cOp> jessta, poll for results?
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12:39 < jessta> mostly for callbacks
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12:51 < jA_cOp> I don't understand jessta, how does that help you run Go
code from C, though?
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14:09 < hyakuhei> Hey all, I've just started playing with Go, I'm interested
in network applications, particularly network filters and parsers but the
networking in Go looks rather limited, can you (for instance) setup a PF_PACKET
type socket in Go on Linux?
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14:14 < taruti> nope.
14:14 < taruti> you can hack around that though
14:14 < hyakuhei> Is that because its not desirable or its not been
implemented yet?
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16:07 < keet> how do you initialize an array during declaration?
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16:09 < keet> k got it
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17:17 < skelterjohn> morning
17:18 < maikeru|> g'morning
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17:39 < WalterMundt> Why is go/ast.ImportSpec.Path a []*BasicLit instead of
just *BasicLit?  Isn't the import path for a particular ImportSpec just a single
string literal?
17:40 < dho> jesus christ, qtvali needs to drown in a lake
17:40 < dho> me: here's a good way to do network applications
17:40 < dho> him: YES BUT IT WILL BE SLOW IF I WRITE SLOW THINGS INTO IT
17:41 < dho> me: *murder*
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17:44 < skelterjohn> i don't reply to his posts
17:44 < skelterjohn> i rarely even read them...  my "wall-of-text" defense
kicks in
17:44 < dagle> dho: :D
17:45 < dagle> He wants go to write the program for him?
17:45 < WalterMundt> I read them sometimes, they're kind of amusing in a
"people actually think this way?" fashion.  I'll probably stop bothering soon.
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17:46 < WalterMundt> Mostly I think the people telling him to pick a
different language are right.  Like the fellow yesterday who thought all arrays
everywhere ought to have a "combinations" method
17:47 < skelterjohn> is tambet the same person as qtvali?
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17:48 < WalterMundt> I kind of prefer qtvali to the asterisk formerly known
as (???)
17:50 < jessta> lol, yeah that guy
17:50 < skelterjohn> I'd rather have someone argue with me in a way that I
can actually comprehend and refute
17:51 < skelterjohn> than someone who is just bizarre
17:51 < WalterMundt> he has a super seekrit programming environment and its
existence proves him superior to all of us...riiight.
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17:51 < WalterMundt> apparently the days of vim and emacs are numbered
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17:52 < skelterjohn> i have no problem with that
17:52 < skelterjohn> i like emacs because it works anywhere (that i care to
be) and i know how to use it
17:52 < skelterjohn> aside from that, not much attachment
17:53 < WalterMundt> I'm slightly more attached to vim.  Something would
have to be demonstratively-way-better to motivate me to switch in any kind of
persistent way.
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17:54 < WalterMundt> I ran emacs for awhile, and it wasn't better-enough,
though I did get familiar enough that I can work in emacs if I have to
17:54 < maikeru|> how are the days of vim numbered?
17:54 < jessta> I can't stand either emacs or vim
17:54 < maikeru|> I'll never let that happen.  Bring death to me first.
17:55 < WalterMundt> malkerul: I was being facetious, in reference to mr *'s
claims on golang-nuts
17:55 < jessta> is he talking about something like 'subtext'?
17:55 < WalterMundt> of having something vastly superior for doing
programming
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17:55 < WalterMundt> I haven't a clue what he might be talking about
17:55 < maikeru|> Oh.
17:55 < maikeru|> I don't pay attention to any of that.
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17:56 < WalterMundt> that's probably wise
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18:00 < maikeru|> I live in the hope that if anything worthy of reading
occurs, it will be mentioned somewhere in here as well
18:00 < WalterMundt> As opposed to hearing about posts by people who
identify themselves with funny punctuation.  Noted.
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18:04 < anticw> iant: has there been any thought/suggestions on how ioctl
interface glue should look?
18:04 < anticw> iant: godefs + unsafe + uglies?
18:05 <+iant> no thoughts that I know, it's kind of painful
18:05 < anticw> iant: some ioctls (not many, mostly older ones) even have
embedded pointers :(
18:06 < anticw> i think we can avoid most if not all of those, and likely
any 'blobs' pass in/out are <page_size
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18:09 < taruti> of course there is always the option of using emacs with
vi-emulation :)
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18:18 < skelterjohn> I think it would be a good idea to have channel
grouping and channel splitting
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18:19 < skelterjohn> that is, if I have three things of type "chan X", then
I can have a thing of type "changroup X" and include them in that changroup so
that when I read from teh changroup, it selects from the chans
18:19 < skelterjohn> and when i write to the changroup, it writes to all the
chans
18:20 < skelterjohn> or maybe writes to just one of them
18:20 < hyakuhei> Is there a forum for Go related discussion or is it only
the mailing list and irc?
18:21 < skelterjohn> I only know of the mailing list and irc channel
18:21 < skelterjohn> but the ML can be treated like a forum *shrug*
18:21 < anticw> there is a google wave thang too, though it's not clear if
that's useful
18:21 < skelterjohn> anticw: do you mean the gb wave?  or is there a general
purpose one
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18:22 < hyakuhei> cool, thanks
18:22 <+iant> skelterjohn: you can do that with goroutines, I think, so it
could be part of the library
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18:22 < skelterjohn> iant: select from an arbitrary number of channels?  how
can you do that?
18:22 < anticw> skelterjohn: not sure what you're asking, there is some Go
thang on wave.google.com people can subscribe to
18:22 < anticw> i know very little about wave though
18:22 <+iant> oh, I see; you're right, there is no way to select from an
arbitrary number
18:23 < skelterjohn> i think some way to do that is important
18:23 <+iant> it hasn't been implemented because we don't know how to make
it efficient
18:23 < skelterjohn> ah
18:23 < skelterjohn> i can certainly do it inefficiently (busy-loops with
Gosched)
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18:36 < dho> skelterjohn: I don't understand how that's different from a
select block with each of the channels listed?
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18:37 < skelterjohn> because you need to be able to have an arbitrary (ie
not known when writing code) number of channels to select from
18:37 < WalterMundt> dho: you can do it programatically, which would
otherwise require code generation
18:37 < dho> I guess I don't understand why that should evaluate to anything
other than select working the same way it does with a `variable inner block' i
guess.
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18:38 < skelterjohn> it wouldn't be different from that
18:38 < skelterjohn> it's just something you can't do right now
18:38 < WalterMundt> variable inner block?
18:38 < skelterjohn> variable length inner block, i'm assuming
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18:39 < dho> right
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19:01 < dho> ...
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19:02 < dho> _zz: you're generating a LOT of noise.
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19:09 < skelterjohn> probably automated
19:10 * skelterjohn digs into some ramen noodles...oh boy
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19:54 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FPt6 by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/crypto/ -- Apply symmetric changes to sha1 and sha256 as to md4 and
md5.
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20:10 < jhh> dho: what's the status of gb?  i saw we have some new members?
:)
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20:15 < skelterjohn> i think the new people were just curious bystanders
rather than active participants
20:15 < jhh> i see
20:18 < jhh> are you against elaborating the gb format?
20:18 < dagle> Guest45780: Plz fix your connection and nick.  Kinda anoying
that you reconnect/change nick all the time.
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20:20 < skelterjohn> jhh: yeah kinda.  Not enough to complain, but it dims
my interest in the project a bit.
20:22 < jhh> i'm afraid it could get a lot more complicated through the
changes to the build files.  i hope the file itself can stay simple for most of
the cases
20:22 < skelterjohn> maybe an op can kick zz.  iant?
20:23 < jhh> but the deeper i look into the makefiles the messier it seems
to me.  leaving the work to shell script won't really work i think
20:23 < skelterjohn> doesn't have to be a shell script
20:24 < skelterjohn> could be run("make") :)
20:24 < skelterjohn> just some command line
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20:24 < jhh> yeah but that's not reusable
20:24 < skelterjohn> ?
20:25 < skelterjohn> what do you mean
20:25 < WalterMundt> Yeah, I fall under the 'curious bystander' category
20:25 < dho> jhh: I liked your ideas
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20:26 < jhh> dho: cool, thanks
20:26 < dho> jhh: I'd like to make the $< $@ sort of variables have
usable names.
20:26 < dho> jhh: But I liked the idea that you tell it what sort of target
it is
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20:27 < jhh> skelterjohn: for example the cgo stuff.  you compile a new
program to build a new type of sourcefile.  it get's messy if you want to build a
lot of cgo files
20:27 < jhh> or rather turn them into c and then compile them
20:28 < skelterjohn> you mean, make isn't a suitable tool for that task?
20:28 < WalterMundt> I have thoughts but I'm not at all sure that what I
want and what the gb crew -- whoever that consists of -- wants are similar enough
that I should bring my ideas
20:28 < dho> WalterMundt: I guess the `gb crew' is jhh and I at the moment
20:28 < dho> Russ is sort of guidance
20:29 < WalterMundt> ok
20:29 < dho> jhh: also, Russ said to ignore c header dependencies, so I
don't think we need to worry about that -- we just need to worry about being able
to specify package dependencies for c sources
20:29 < dho> jhh: for instance, a c file can certainly call fmt_Printf()
20:29 < dho> s/_/correct_utf8_middle_dot_char/
20:30 < dho> but there's no way without scanning the c source to determine
what packages it depends on
20:30 < jhh> dho: i don't like the names of the variables either.  and i'm
not sure if the binding of variables can work the way i did it.  but we can change
it any way we like
20:30 < dho> Also I don't like interpolating variables inside variables
20:30 < dho> e.g.  $(SOURCEFILES_$(GOARCH))
20:30 < jhh> dho: the good thing about c is that we only have to grep for
includes.  it doesn't affect the build process itself
20:30 < dho> jhh: grep isn't everywhere
20:31 < jhh> yeah, we'll see, i don't think that will be a problem
20:31 < jhh> (the grepping)
20:31 * skelterjohn punches zz
20:31 < dho> ^ this
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20:32 < jhh> $(SOURCEFILES_$(GOARCH)) is kind of ugly but better then a lot
of if statements i tought
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20:32 < dho> _zz: I'm going to kill you.
20:33 < dho> jhh: Yeah, I'm not sure.  Conditional compilation is sort of a
pain in the ass.
20:33 < WalterMundt> I'll discuss my thoughts on gb here then, after I have
lunch
20:33 < dho> jhh: I wonder if a switch-type construct would be best
20:33 < dho> maybe not.
20:34 < michael|> and I'm one of those curious bystanders as well btw
20:34 < dho> But you could achieve the same thing with e.g.
20:34 < dho> SOURCEFILES=foo bar bat baz
20:34 < WalterMundt> mainly, I'm concerned that in order to gain enough
generality to compile go's pkg tree it will lose the ability to do the right thing
by default in the absence of any/much configuration
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20:34 < dho> WalterMundt: nah, that's so easy that if you pass it the right
flag, it can bypass all the configuration stuff altogether.
20:35 < dho> WalterMundt: that's literally like 200 loc
20:35 < dho> then have
20:35 < dho> switch $GOARCH
20:35 < dho> case arm:
20:35 < dho> SOURCEFILES+=arm_foo arm_bar
20:35 < dho> etc
20:35 < jhh> dho: i don't care about the syntax too much, more about the
structure.  switch would be fine with me
20:35 < WalterMundt> dho: we'll see, also we may differ on what 'the right
thing' means as a default, but I still need to read more to decide on that
20:36 < dho> I feel like some sort of construct would be nice.
20:36 < skelterjohn> I think that if you find it difficult to make a general
"good" builder that can build the go src tree, then you should reorganize the go
src tree
20:36 < dho> variable variables are such a pain in the ass
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20:37 < dho> in both the sense of interpreting them and reading what someone
else wrote using them
20:37 < jhh> dho: did you look at jams variable expansion?
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20:38 < jhh> they do FILES= _foo _bar and then SOURCES+= $(GOOS)$(FILES) and
that produces e.g.  arm_foo arm_bar
20:38 < dho> right, yeah i'm reading that now
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20:39 < jhh> but the general case is harder, not all OSs and ARCHs have the
"same" files
20:39 < dho> Yeah.  I think that's stupid.
20:39 < dho> in some cases.
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20:41 < jhh> I tried to build a go project with jamfiles but to be honest i
didn't really understand where files end up and how i find the right files in case
of subdirs
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20:42 < jhh> but we could adopt the SubDir rule to understand the structure
of the src tree
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20:42 < dho> what do you mean `where files end up' and `how i find the right
files'
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20:44 < jhh> you have sourcefiles in src/package/ and obj or lib files in
_tmp/package/ and somehow my attempt seems to look for the sources resp.  obj
files in ./
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20:45 < jhh> that might be a problem for us as well.  specification of file
names should be easy and definition of rules too
20:45 < dho> specifications of file names to build should be easy, how to
build them should be easy as well.  I liked the way you have it
20:45 < dho> though it is really similar to jam
20:46 < jhh> but the built files must not end up in the directory of the src
files
20:46 < dho> why not?
20:46 < dho> they currently do.
20:46 < jhh> they must not if we use wildcards to list source files
20:47 < jhh> .cgo files turn into .c files (i think) and that'll be false
hits for source files
20:47 < dho> .cgo files turn into .c files that need to be source files.
20:48 < jhh> my thought was that you say "compile all these files" and some
of them happen to be .cgo files that are turned into .c files during their
compilation but those temporary .c files are not really sources
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20:49 < dho> maybe part of that confusion is .cgo files and files that are
created by cgo
20:49 < dho> .cgo files are weird combinations of C and Go, and it's only in
pkg/runtime
20:50 < dho> cgo is the C FFI thing, part of which is expected to be built
with gcc, part with 6c and part with 6g
20:51 < dho> In the latter case, yes, all of the generated source is not
used to build the program
20:51 < dho> helpfully, those generated files are all either called
_cgo_something.c or _cgo_something.go or something.cgo1.c or something.cgo2.go
20:52 < jhh> but they are temporary and not specified by the wildcards in
the first place so they shouldn't be specified in a second build neither
20:53 < jhh> you are thinking about building in a special rule for that
stuff?
20:54 < skelterjohn> it all sounds so complicated :\
20:54 < dho> jhh: I think that we should support building cgo, yes
20:54 < dho> (Make.pkg does)
20:54 < jhh> maybe specify them to be temporary, so they get deleted after
the rules was executed
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20:54 < dho> (and let me tell you how much fun it was to make Make.pkg do
cgo from multiple .go inputs: exactly -><- that much)
20:55 < dho> I think a good exercise might be to take Make.pkg and Make.cmd
and see how they'd analogue to this.
20:55 < jhh> you made those?
20:56 < dho> No but I've done a few fixes to cgo that required massive
handling of Make.pkg
20:56 < jhh> i didn't really use cgo yet and briefly looked at they rules, i
guess my example is incomplete wrt.  cgo
20:56 < dho> well, again, cgo and cgo2c are completely different things
20:56 < jhh> s/they/their/
20:57 < jhh> oh
20:57 < dho> cgo is a program that takes a .go input file and generates c
and go stubs for FFI with C.
20:57 < dho> cgo2c is a program that takes these weird hybrid C/Go source
files and generates a .c file that can be compiled with 6c, and is only used in
src/pkg/runtime
20:57 < dho> their similar naming is unfortunate
20:58 < jhh> okay
21:00 < jhh> i tried to keep my idea simple but also general enough to
express everything we are doing (compiling/linking go/c) to make sure it is
possible to extend it to future special stuff.  feel free to add cgo support :)
21:00 < dho> Russ says `make it easy to specify recipes for doing the build'
21:01 < dho> I wonder if there's anything we could do to make it feel more
like a recipe specification.  Your jam-like thing feels a bit more like that.
21:01 < jhh> yeah opposed to "say explicitly how to build every file"
21:01 < dho> There's probably not much more to do that wouldn't make it
overly verbose
21:03 < dho> the Pack %.a rule seems weird to me
21:03 < dho> there's nothing explicitly in there that says something.a
21:03 < jhh> i think at may get verbose as long it says simple for the
simple cases
21:05 < dho> alright.
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21:08 < jhh> %.go+ for a list of go files is so ulgy it ugs in the ug
21:09 < dho> yeah it's not so nice
21:10 < skelterjohn> use regexps ;)
21:10 < jhh> but we somehow have to know which rule to use for which file
21:11 < jhh> the root of all evil is that one .c file turns into one .o file
but many .go files turn into one .o file
21:11 * jhh slaps zz.
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21:12 < skelterjohn> .go files don't turn into .o files, they turn into .6
files :)
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21:12 < dho> they turn into $.(O) files :P
21:12 < jhh> you know what i mean :)
21:12 < dho> or whatever
21:12 < jhh> the problem ist 1:1 resp.  n:1
21:13 < jhh> dho: put a switch in if you have an idea
21:13 < skelterjohn> hum.  i know it isn't normal to do so, but isn't it
possible to compile multiple .c files into the same .o?
21:13 < jhh> the -= is not really nice too
21:13 < dho> skelterjohn: sure
21:14 < skelterjohn> so just do that
21:14 < jhh> sure if that works :)
21:15 < dho> jhh: I don't see why we can't have e.g
21:15 < dho> Object out.$O:
21:15 < dho> Compile $SOURCEFILES
21:15 < jhh> you mean as a different syntax?
21:16 < dho> I dunno
21:17 < dho> ToBuild out.$O:
21:17 < dho> CompileThese $SOURCEFILES
21:17 < jhh> my major concern is that we can build a dependency graph with
all creation rules set up before the buildprocess starts.  make does interleave
the two
21:19 < jhh> dho: add recipes and try to write a file for runtime and put it
in the wave :)
21:19 < skelterjohn> only by implementation.  the make syntax allows what
you suggest
21:19 < dho> alright
21:19 < skelterjohn> it's just "target: dep1 dep2 ...  \n command"
21:19 < jhh> skelterjohn: i'm not sure
21:19 < skelterjohn> could analyze all the deps ahead of time
21:20 < jhh> you can have more rules to build a target
21:20 < skelterjohn> and then 200 wonky things to do with targets and deps
and wild cards and variables and stuff
21:20 < skelterjohn> maybe i don't know as much about make as you do.  not
an expert by any means.
21:20 < jhh> me neither
21:21 < jhh> make looks for the first rule which it is able to fulfill the
dependencies
21:21 < jhh> there's a "for" missing
21:21 < dho> yep, make loves first match
21:22 < skelterjohn> ah you're right...
21:22 < jhh> things get weired then
21:22 < jhh> i don't like thinking about those implications
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21:26 < dho> this is really overly verbose, but it does read like a recipe
21:27 < dho> ``add 32 oz of nutmeg to SIZE''
21:27 < dho> (just kidding)
21:27 < jhh> what do you mean?
21:27 < dho> I'm making jokes about cooking recipes.
21:27 < dho> Should add in built-in Stir and RinseRepeat commands for
looping
21:27 < dho> haha
21:27 < jhh> hehe
21:29 < jhh> and there's a problem to do something for each of the sources
or for all of them together.  i think we are converging towards "all of them"
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21:32 < dho> hm, if you think about it, specifying how to build something is
really a lot like a recipe
21:33 < dho> I need to think about this a bit more conceptually, and perhaps
what I come up with will be more amusing than practical, but it's worth a shot.
21:33 < skelterjohn> how about this: you have gb for go building.  cb for c
building.  cgb for cgo building, etc.  they each have their own equivalent to a
.gb file.  when you run gb, it will run cb and cgb too, if they're needed
21:33 < skelterjohn> each of the individual programs will be simpler
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21:33 < skelterjohn> and you don't have to worry about complicated
multi-source-language stuff in your builder file
21:34 < jhh> but they are linked into the same libs i think
21:34 < skelterjohn> yes
21:34 < skelterjohn> so rather than running gb, you would run pb (project
builder) which runs gb, cb, etc
21:34 < skelterjohn> and then gets back what needs to be linked
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21:35 < skelterjohn> or have these in the same program, but use different
builder files/syntax :)
21:35 < skelterjohn> since, in this case, they can't really exist without
each other
21:36 < jhh> hm but that's not extensible without new code.
21:36 < skelterjohn> sure
21:36 < skelterjohn> does it have to be?
21:36 < jhh> yeah, good question
21:37 < skelterjohn> unless you're trying to write a "do anything" program,
stick to what's simple
21:37 < jhh> so .h generation would go into the cb file, but what if that
requires builing a go files?
21:37 < skelterjohn> otherwise you're just inventing a new language.  i
don't think that's the right approach
21:38 < skelterjohn> jhh: does it make sense for that to be the case?  i
have done nothing with cgo
21:38 < jhh> (and i think that is happening)
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21:38 < skelterjohn> then i think that cb will have to use the go compiler
as part of its process
21:38 < jhh> oh no it's c
21:38 < dho> Yeah no
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21:38 < dho> cgo generates .c for gcc, .c for 6c and .go
21:39 < dho> also, 6c-compiled .c files *can* depend on .go packages.
21:39 < jhh> so we cannot seperate it?
21:39 < skelterjohn> dho: i imagine inferring those deps is difficult
21:39 < skelterjohn> and might be best left to specifying in the proj.cb
file
21:39 < dho> skelterjohn: yes, because you have to parse the .c file for
references to e.g.  fmt.Printf()
21:40 < dho> with s/\./middle-dot/
21:40 < skelterjohn> oh
21:40 < skelterjohn> then just search for pkg<middle-dot>
21:40 < jhh> i imagine finding all dependencies in .c and .cgo will be fun
21:40 < skelterjohn> and then it depends on pkg, since <middle-dot> is
something that isn't used anywhere else?
21:41 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FV39 by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ --
improve some type switches now that multiple types per case are supported.
21:41 < dho> skelterjohn: yes but .c can also *define* functions
21:41 < dho> with middle dot
21:41 < dho> that's how runtime works
21:41 < skelterjohn> but people who write c code are just going to have to
enumerate their deps
21:41 < skelterjohn> that's just how it is for writing c code
21:41 < skelterjohn> if you want nice dep inference, write it in go :)
21:43 < skelterjohn> but my main point is that maybe instructions for
building different kinds of things should go in different kinds of files
21:43 < skelterjohn> most people won't need any files
21:43 < skelterjohn> some will need 1 or 2
21:43 < skelterjohn> runtime will need all possible spec files
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21:46 < dho> that's an interesting idea
21:46 < dho> I think it fits well with the one-tool-one-job philosophy of
plan 9 (and hopefully go)
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21:47 < skelterjohn> and linux in general
21:47 < skelterjohn> until someone made eclipse
21:47 < dho> linux is ass, linux has one tool, 8 trillion flags
21:47 < dho> well
21:47 < dho> gnu coreutils anyway
21:47 < dho> bsd's userland is not much better.
21:48 < dho> I'm still going to play around with this recipe idea for build
specifications, I was writing it and I really liked the way it organized, but it's
tough for non-trivial things of course
21:48 -!- asyncster [n=asyncste@206.169.213.106] has joined #go-nuts
21:48 < asyncster> what's the easiest way to convert a string into []byte?
21:48 < skelterjohn> different sections for ingredients and instructions?
21:49 < asyncster> i usually use bytes.Buffer but that has some overhead
21:49 < skelterjohn> strings.Byes(s)
21:49 < asyncster> ahh
21:49 < asyncster> ok
21:49 < dho> skelterjohn: sort of, yeah.  ingredients -> things to build,
instructions -> how to do it
21:49 < dho> also, ingredients can be complicated things that you specified
in a previous `recipe'
21:49 < skelterjohn> aka a dep
21:49 < skelterjohn> sounds interesting
21:50 < dho> yeah, when i thought about it, it clicked.
21:50 < dho> we'll see how it works
21:50 < dho> Recipes are verbose.
21:50 < dho> OTOH that's not necessarily a bad thing; Make.pkg is
unreadable.
21:50 < skelterjohn> good thing i don't have to read it, just include it
21:51 < dho> lucky you ;)
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21:51 < jhh> i spend a lot of time thinking about what is actually bad about
the makefiles
21:51 < jhh> and what causes those bad things
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21:53 < jhh> it's hard to put the finger into something.  reusing other
rules might be useful
21:54 < jhh> specifying sources to build a target (lib) rather than
specifying targets (objs) to build a target (lib) is certainly a good idea, isn't
it?
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21:56 < skelterjohn> are there reasonable cases where not all obj files will
be built into the target?
21:57 < skelterjohn> reasonable as in, it can't be done any other way
21:57 < skelterjohn> certainly if there is an obj folder where every obj in
it by definition goes in
21:57 < skelterjohn> then there is no reason to specify objs.  just need to
know when to build.
21:58 < jhh> that was just a thing i consider bad style in the current go
files.
21:58 < jhh> you specify .o files to build c and cgo stuff
21:59 < dho> Russ touched on that but not explicitly
21:59 < jhh> what do you mean?
21:59 < dho> The second is make it easy to specify recipes for doing the
build.  Make does a mediocre job with this, and gb as described is probably a
little worse, because everything has to fit in a run() clause.  It is important
that these two jobs be separated: when you switch to a new compiler you want to
change the "how things get built" but not so much "which files are involved".
Make's biggest failure is that it conflates the two.
22:00 < dho> I think file lists need to be first class things, as do
targets.  Right now there is just one big implicit target.  Maybe it makes sense
to have a different gb file for each target.
22:00 < dho> This last statement fits in well with the idea of recipes, and
also with the idea of a `pb' utility
22:01 < skelterjohn> if we have pb invoke jam, i would be a bit happier than
otherwise
22:01 < dho> The `conflating the two' I don't agree with 100% and again,
runtime is a good example of why
22:01 < dho> runtime needs to build things with different flags and
different compilers, but it also uses different files.
22:06 < skelterjohn> i still vote for pb&jam
22:06 < dho> oh god.
22:06 < dho> now i get it.
22:07 < skelterjohn> =p
22:07 * WalterMundt returns
22:08 < jhh> project builder transforming pb files into jamfiles and then
running jam?
22:08 < skelterjohn> runny jam is just a pain
22:08 < skelterjohn> need to clean it right away otherwise there is a mess
22:08 < dho> argh.
22:09 < dho> jhh: he's making a joke about peanut butter and jam sandwiches.
22:09 < skelterjohn> i think i'm on dho's ignore list now
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22:09 < dho> pb&j
22:09 < jhh> i worked on a project build with jam, worked fine
22:09 * dho facepalms
22:09 < WalterMundt> why in the db spec does the presence of a Build.gb
prevent gb from seeing subdirs as separate packages?
22:09 < dho> WalterMundt: because I wasn't sure how to handle it otherwise
22:09 < jhh> oh
22:09 < dho> WalterMundt: that's not something that's staying
22:10 < WalterMundt> there's no real rationale for that in the doc, it's
just stated and I'd have done it the other way around
22:10 < WalterMundt> er, gb spec
22:10 < WalterMundt> as in, presume each directory in the tree is really
independent, unless a build file says otherwise
22:10 < WalterMundt> just that foo/bar builds to foo/bar and not just bar
22:11 < WalterMundt> otherwise it would be processed in a way unrelated to
foo or any files foo might contain
22:12 < WalterMundt> unrelated note, ideally I'd like a tool that will
detect import "C" and automatically know to use cgo for those files without any
special instructions
22:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FWJB by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/test/ -- test case for issue 471
22:13 < skelterjohn> and also barf if you try to name a package "C" :)
22:13 < WalterMundt> true, but I'm unconvinced that this is a bad thing
22:14 < WalterMundt> and again, you can always go in with a build file and
slap its wrist and say "no, that's actually just regular go code"
22:14 < skelterjohn> didn't mean to imply it was
22:14 < usa> dho, I happen to like the "nmake" from the AT&T ast software.
It manages state, such as the version of the compiler used and the values of any
flags set.  It also knows enough so if you build something "by hand" rather than
via "nmake" then it knows that it doesn't know about the objects and rebuilds them
as well.
22:14 < jhh> WalterMundt: i think we have to types of directories:
containers for other dirs and packages.  the first usually do not contain code and
the latter does not contain subdirs.  if you look at subdirs for pkg/runtime, they
do not build packages
22:14 < WalterMundt> if you REALLY want to have a "C" package that isn't a
cgo thing
22:14 < skelterjohn> i'm all for forcing people to do reasonable things
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22:15 < WalterMundt> jhh: I'm not sure I like that idea myself.
22:15 < WalterMundt> I could see e.g.  a db lib that was import "db" and
then import "db/mysql" or import "db/orm"
22:15 < skelterjohn> WalterMundt: if a directory named X has .go files in it
that start with "package X", then that directory is a package
22:15 < WalterMundt> and the natural arrangement for that is to have a db
dir with code for the db module, and subdirs with code for the others
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22:16 < skelterjohn> in that case, mysql should have some source
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22:16 < WalterMundt> i.e.  the parent db dir would contain BOTH source code
and subdir-packages
22:16 < WalterMundt> but the two would be largely unrelated in how they are
processed
22:17 < WalterMundt> Java has that model, and Python is close, though
Python's module/package split personality complicates matters a bit
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22:19 < jhh> if db needs a build file then we could add some line in the
file to say subdirs are packages.  but i think this case is an exception.
22:19 < skelterjohn> hmm, 1) i don't think its an exception.  at least in
the go source tree it happens a lot.  2) i think whether or not a subdir is its
own package can be inferred.
22:20 < jhh> pure go packages do not need build files and it can be inferred
automatically
22:20 < jhh> but that's not what we are talking about, is it?
22:21 < skelterjohn> spose.
22:21 < jhh> where are the cases you are talking about?
22:22 < skelterjohn> where subdirs are new packages?
22:22 < jhh> and contain code that need a build file
22:22 < skelterjohn> oh, didn't mean the second half of that
22:22 < WalterMundt> I'm thinking I'd prefer it inverted -- subdirs are
separate packages unless a buildfile somewhere says otherwise
22:23 < jhh> i think dirs that have build files are likely to use subdirs
merely for file grouping and making wildcarding easy
22:23 < WalterMundt> I can see arguments for placing the relevant assertion
either in the subdir or in the parent
22:23 < WalterMundt> if build files with subdirs have a way to tell the tool
to resume implicit behavior for some subset of them, that would be fine with me
22:24 < WalterMundt> e.g.  "I'll handle the foo subdir, but you should treat
bar as you would if there were no buildfile in the current dir"
22:24 < jhh> sure
22:25 < jhh> i don't care too much about the defaults in that case.  dho
even says: no defaults if there is a build file
22:26 < WalterMundt> I'm not sure I like that idea
22:26 < WalterMundt> there should at least be a way to declare a build file
that is defaults-with-variations
22:27 < WalterMundt> even if a build file normally would impose a clean
slate
22:27 < skelterjohn> it makes sense to me to have the build file just tell
you *extra* information
22:28 < skelterjohn> rather than saying "two cases.  with build file or
without.  different procedure depending."
22:28 < WalterMundt> I can see there being a case where you have a really
weird build and want to just give detailed instructions
22:28 < WalterMundt> but I don't see that being terribly common
22:29 < WalterMundt> also, for something like that, make is already
not-too-bad
22:29 < skelterjohn> someone else already wrote the tutorial, in any case
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22:35 < WalterMundt> IMHO the whole point of a go builder is that it will
come with smarts about how go packages are normally built and linked.  If you have
to toss those smarts to customize the process that purpose is in large measure
defeated.
22:35 < skelterjohn> that's where i'm coming from too, WalterMundt
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22:44 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FXYx by [Robert Griesemer] in go/ -- added
author/contributor
22:44 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FXYB by [Ken Friedenbach] in go/misc/xcode/
-- Improved Xcode support
22:44 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FXYR by [Robert Griesemer] in 2 subdirs of
go/test/ -- Test case for issue 475 and related bug.
22:44 < jhh> i think as long as a package has no os/arch specific sources
packages with .go .c and .cgo can be build fully automatically.  i don't really
understand what you are afraid of
22:44 < jhh> and doesn't have to generate sources/headers
22:49 < WalterMundt> because I already on one of my very first attempts am
using godefs to generate code?  (It's for library bindings, and godefs allows
automated extraction of #define constants from the headers into go code)
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22:51 < jhh> uh oh
22:51 < WalterMundt> uh oh?
22:51 < jhh> i have no clue
22:52 < jhh> no clue what you are talking about
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22:53 < WalterMundt> do you care?  I'll happily explain if you think it's
worth the time; it's not that strange
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connection]
22:53 < jhh> http://golang.org/cmd/godefs/
22:54 < jhh> just extracting defines you need to use a c lib?
22:54 < WalterMundt> first, the problem: cgo makes it hard to expose
#defines, because it tries to treat them as things you can look for at link time
22:54 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has quit []
22:54 < WalterMundt> with godefs, I write a short C file that looks like
#include <libfoo.h>; $Foo = LIB_FOO; ...
22:55 < WalterMundt> and godefs figures out what all the values are
(presumably by building a .o file and looking at what the symbols are set to) and
then generates go code with the values defined as constants
22:56 < WalterMundt> so, for a complete binding, either I copy the constant
values out of the header and risk them becoming out of date, or I have godefs do
it, which will be smart enough to update them if the header ever changes how
they're defined
22:57 < WalterMundt> is that sane?  Is there a better solution that's
obvious to you?
23:00 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FYH5 by [Ian Lance Taylor] in go/doc/ --
Document how to build gccgo to use gold.
23:00 < jhh> yeah sounds sane
23:00 < jhh> is it the standard approach for cgo?
23:01 < WalterMundt> I'm not sure
23:01 < WalterMundt> I think the sqlite bindings just went with the manual
copying of constants route
23:01 < jhh> ticking bomb?  ;)
23:02 < taruti> WalterMundt: of course even C things will break if the
#define constants are changed since that breaks binary compatiblity
23:02 < jhh> can that be done automatically like in running godefs on the
complete source?
23:02 < WalterMundt> taruti: that's a good point
23:03 < dho> gold?
23:03 < dho> what am i missing
23:03 * dho wants gold for gc
23:03 < jhh> what?
23:03 < dho> I'm assuming gold = go ld
23:04 < WalterMundt> godefs C files are special and can't automatically be
differentiated from other C code, but are actually converted to go files and then
compiled from there as normal go
23:04 < dho> 18:03 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5FYH5 by [Ian Lance Taylor]
in go/doc/ -- Document how to build gccgo to use gold.
23:04 < WalterMundt> gold is actually google ld I think
23:04 < dho> what's that
23:04 < WalterMundt> is a separate project for a high-speed ELF ld
23:04 < dho> hm
23:04 < dho> interesting
23:04 < WalterMundt> on ELF platforms it's a drop-in for gnu ld that's much
quicker
23:04 < dho> ah, so $faillicense
23:05 < WalterMundt> but it's very specific to the ELF format and it doesn't
do Windows PE or any other executable format
23:05 < WalterMundt> at least, that was what it was when I least read about
it
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23:06 < jhh> so if you use godef you'll generate a new go source.  what
happens with the file it is generated from?  is it included from the c files?
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23:07 < WalterMundt> no, once you've build the go file, the C file is no
longer part of the build
23:07 < dho> WalterMundt: ehh
23:07 < WalterMundt> its only role is as "source" for the generated go code
23:07 < dho> WalterMundt: pkg/runtime requires godefs to generate c source
that *is* used in the build
23:08 < dho> but that c source is also required to be checked in
23:08 < dho> it's not dynamically done
23:08 < dho> (rather, it's not done at build-time)
23:08 < dho> (just pointing out that the c output of it *is* used in places)
23:08 < dho> pkg/syscall uses godefs to generate .go code.
23:08 < dho> (from external c code no less)
23:08 < WalterMundt> as I'm using it, it doesn't even generate any C
23:08 < WalterMundt> it takes C input and generates go output
23:08 < anticw> iant: gccgo can use gold now?
23:09 < dho> WalterMundt: see also e.g.  src/pkg/runtime/$GOOS/defs.c
23:09 < dho> 6 * Input to godefs.
23:09 < dho> 7 *
23:09 < dho> 8 godefs -f -m64 defs.c >amd64/defs.h
23:09 < dho> 9 godefs defs.c >386/defs.h
23:10 < jhh> how common will godefs be?
23:10 < dho> jhh: probably about as common as flying pigs
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23:10 <+iant> anticw: well, gccgo could always use gold, but gccgo will now
use small discontiguous stacks if you use gold
23:10 < dho> jhh: it's worth noting that godefs is never run as part of a
build, it's only built
23:11 < dho> (in the go source tree)
23:11 < dho> jhh: it is only used to generate sources when bootstrapping a
system
23:11 < WalterMundt> okay, so as of now, I'm probably the only one using it
as a build-time tool
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23:11 < dho> WalterMundt: I'm curious about your usage
23:12 < anticw> dho: it's still needed to refresh syscalls and error glue
potentially
23:12 < WalterMundt> well, my philosophy is that if it's generated I don't
check it in, so I have the build system generate it
23:12 < WalterMundt> even if it's unlikely to change
23:13 < dho> anticw: yes, but that's done manually
23:13 < WalterMundt> dho: http://pastebin.com/d53fb47f5 for example
23:13 < dho> (I have to do that again at some point when we figure out how
we're going to handle OS versioning)
23:13 < jhh> i'll think about it.  i don't think it'll be too hard
23:13 < WalterMundt> is part of a nascent binding for GNU libidn
23:14 < dho> WalterMundt: oh, you're using that because cgo can't handle
defines
23:14 < dho> that's on my plate
23:14 < WalterMundt> yeah
23:14 < dho> and will be fixed :)
23:14 < WalterMundt> if cgo could do defines, I'd drop godefs as an unneeded
extra complexity
23:14 < dho> it will
23:14 < WalterMundt> sounds handy ;)
23:15 < dho> russ is trying to push cgo onto me
23:15 < dho> heh
23:15 < dho> i'm reluctantly willing
23:15 < WalterMundt> succeeding apparently
23:15 < jhh> you'll program a c preproccessor?
23:15 < dho> i've done enough with it at this point that i may as well
23:15 < dho> no
23:15 < dho> sec
23:15 < dho>
http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=435&colspec=ID%20Type%20Status%20Owner%20Reporter%20Summary
23:16 < dho> it'll basically be parsing output of gcc -e -dM
23:16 < dho> or -x, whatever the stupid flag is
23:16 < jhh> ah okay
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23:18 < jhh> Walter, that's not even a real c file but it's called .c?
that's confusing
23:19 < WalterMundt> jhh: it's a real C file, technically
23:19 < dho> jhh: pray don't look into src/pkg/runtime/*/defs*.c
23:19 < dho> :)
23:20 < WalterMundt> you can compile it into a .o file if you really want to
23:20 < WalterMundt> but all it does is define a few symbols
23:20 < WalterMundt> ($ is a valid identifier character in C)
23:20 < jhh> okay
23:21 < dho> especially in kenc where any utf character is a valid
identifier in c
23:21 < dho> well, almost
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23:21 < WalterMundt> dho: does/will cgo handle enums?  Most of those are
already an enum in the header I think, but they didn't seem to work when I started
it a week or two ago
23:21 < dho> see also plan 9, or (again) src/pkg/runtime which has a lot of
utf characters in symbols in .c and .s files
23:21 < dho> WalterMundt: uhhh
23:22 < dho> iirc it should handle integral enums
23:22 < WalterMundt> ok, I might have done it wrong
23:22 < WalterMundt> I will see if I can reduce that to just the prefix,
which is a #define'd string constant
23:22 < dho> yeah, that ticket is closed
23:22 < dho> WalterMundt: do you run off of tip?  or release?
23:22 < dho> i have a bug in cgo that would cause symbols to go missing
that's in the last release.
23:23 < dho> it's fixed in tip
23:23 < WalterMundt> it has varied.  I started on release, then went to tip
for a little while
23:23 < dho> (but that's only if you have multiple .go inputs to cgo)
23:23 < WalterMundt> I think I put it back on release as of the last release
with the semicolon change integrated
23:23 < dho> ok the 12/22 release
23:23 < WalterMundt> yeah
23:23 < dho> i think that still has the bug
23:24 < dho> but are you using cgo a.go b.go?
23:24 < dho> or just cgo a.go?
23:24 < WalterMundt> ok, I don't think it'd apply
23:24 < dho> in the latter case, it shouldn't be an issue
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23:24 < WalterMundt> it's just one file, so it's probably something I was
doingh
23:24 < dho> ok.  yeah, cgo should handle enums and if it doesn't, file an
issue pl0x
23:24 < WalterMundt> or an older bug, since I've been messing with this very
part-time ever since the initial code release
23:25 < dho> ok.  there was a point at which it definitely did *not* work
23:25 < dho> so that's also a valid possibility
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23:27 < WalterMundt> what Go type is C.SOME_INTEGRAL_ENUM_VAL?
23:28 < dho> int i believe.
23:30 < WalterMundt> I can't declare them as Go consts, can I?
23:30 < dho> ummm
23:30 < dho> i seriously forget how it was fixed
23:30 < dho> let me look
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23:30 < dho> (i still think these things assuming int should assume intptr
instead)
23:30 < WalterMundt> ..cgi1.go enum refs look like *_C_IDNA_SUCCESS;
23:31 < dho> http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=207
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23:34 < WalterMundt> thanks for the link *reads*
23:34 < dho> no problem, should shed some light
23:35 < dho> Now, that should be in the 12/22 release
23:36 < dho> aha
23:36 < dho> it declares it as a constant.
23:37 < WalterMundt> I must not have the patch
23:37 < WalterMundt> var _C_IDNA_ALLOW_UNASSIGNED *_C_int
23:38 < dho> or an old version of cgo...
23:38 < dho> cd $GOROOT/src/cmd/cgo; grep Enumdefs main.go
23:38 < WalterMundt> moving to tip
23:38 < dho> er
23:38 < dho> s/Enumdefs/Enumdef/
23:39 < WalterMundt> it has that
23:39 < WalterMundt> huh
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23:39 < dho> if you gmake install and retry does it fix the issue?  :P
23:39 < WalterMundt> let's see!
23:39 * dho crosses fingers.
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23:41 < WalterMundt> doesn't appear to
23:41 < WalterMundt> #pragma dynld idn·_C_IDNA_ALLOW_UNASSIGNED
IDNA_ALLOW_UNASSIGNED "/home/toranin/build/go/pkg/linux_386/idn.so"
23:41 < dho> can you tar up the code somewhere?
23:41 < WalterMundt> (same behavior as before)
23:41 < WalterMundt> sure
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23:46 < WalterMundt> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3731434/goidn.tar.gz
23:46 < WalterMundt> (currently declared as var in the code because that
actually compiles)
23:48 < dho> hm
23:49 < WalterMundt> the header looks like this: typedef enum { IDNA_SUCCESS
= 0, ....  } Idna_rc; ...
23:49 < WalterMundt> if that helps any
23:49 < dho> yeah apparently i have it somewhere
23:49 < WalterMundt> I suspect it's used here and there because nobody
really wants to implement stringprep or IDNA
23:50 < dho> oei.
23:50 < dho> I wonder if that's because it's in an extern c block
23:50 < dho> or becuase it's a typedef enum
23:50 < WalterMundt> no idea
23:51 < WalterMundt> is cgo building with __cplusplus?
23:52 < dho> yeah so it doesn't even see the enum
23:54 < WalterMundt> oh wait
23:54 < WalterMundt> I wonder where it fills in cref.Type
23:58 < WalterMundt> ahh, okay, it's in cgo/gcc.go:loadDebugInfo
--- Log closed Wed Dec 30 00:00:00 2009