--- Log opened Thu Dec 31 00:00:19 2009 --- Day changed Thu Dec 31 2009 00:00 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has quit [] 00:01 < usa> Should I be concerned if I submit a change to the code review system and I get an email bounce from golang-dev saying I am not subscribed? 00:01 -!- goplexian [n=acombas@d154-20-0-9.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:02 <+iant> usa: did you pick any other reviewer? if not, then the code review will be there but nobody will know about it 00:03 < usa> No, I didn't pick any other reviwer. 00:03 <+iant> what is the issue number? 00:03 < usa> 181097 00:06 <+iant> yeah, I don't think I got an e-mail about that, I do see it in the codereview site, though 00:06 < dho> but a hostname is not a fqdn :( 00:06 < dho> people who do that should stop breaking dns :( 00:06 -!- binaryjohn_ [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:07 < usa> Nothing at all links hostnames and DNS apart from convention 00:08 < usa> Having a hostname of mungo.bath.ac.uk is fine. 00:09 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-20-82-64-3-143.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11 < dho> having a hostname of mungo is fine. if mungo belongs to the bath.ac.uk domain, that's a different story. 00:12 < usa> Why do you believe that? 00:12 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:13 -!- niekie [i=quasselc@CAcert/Assurer/niekie] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13 < dho> a) because a large number of network software packages require that assumption to be true to function properly (for various reasons) 00:14 < usa> Can you name one? 00:14 < dho> spread, for starters. 00:14 < dho> b) because it's a lot easier to maintain hostnames when you have a hostname and the rest is managed by dns, especially in larger environments 00:15 < usa> Let me see what I can find about "spread". 00:15 < dho> let me help you: http://www.spread.org/ 00:15 -!- Guest24563 [n=elmar@188.107.223.163] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:16 -!- ShadowIce [n=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:16 < usa> Thanks, looking at it now. How does spread deal with multihomed hosts? 00:16 < dho> our commercial smtp platform also requires it (partially because spread requires it) 00:16 < dho> multihomed in what sense? part of multiple domains? 00:17 < dho> or on multiple network segments 00:17 < usa> The latter. 00:18 < dho> hosts communicating with each other are required to be on the same segment 00:20 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21 < usa> So take mungo again. It has multiple DNS entries, one for each LAN that it is on, e.g. mungo.lan1.bath.ac.uk, mungo.lan2.bath.ac.uk, ... mungo.lan12.bath.ac.uk. These allow both forward and reverse lookups, so there are also entries in the 38.138.in-addr.arpa domaind. 00:21 -!- hyakuhei [n=hyakuhei@unaffiliated/robc] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:22 < usa> The typical /etc/resolv.conf file provided has 'search' directives which say something like 'lan4.bath.ac.uk bath.ac.uk' 00:23 < usa> and most people just mount "mungo" rather than anything else. Do you see anything broken so far? 00:23 < dho> Maybe, but continue 00:24 < asyncster> wow, gofmt kinda breaks down at some of the values at the end of the test table: 00:24 < asyncster> http://github.com/hoisie/gostache/blob/master/gostache_test.go 00:24 -!- zaker_ [n=zaker@18.19.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24 -!- zaker [n=zaker@18.19.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:25 -!- Norgg [n=norgg@norgg.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25 < usa> There are also A records for mungo.bath.ac.uk, which list all the interfaces. 00:26 < dho> Ok 00:26 < dho> So presumably clients looking for `mungo' are served the proper A record for their view 00:28 < usa> The 'search' record means that they will get the correct one, assuming that they allow DHCP to configure their /etc/resolv.conf. 00:29 < usa> However we wish to present the idea that mungo.bath.ac.uk is one machine, not a dozen. 00:30 < usa> So far we are just using the DNS to present the information. 00:31 -!- r2p2 [n=billy@v32671.1blu.de] has left #go-nuts [] 00:32 < dho> Ok, and you can present that by using views 00:33 < usa> Now the question is what happens if some subdomain owner decides that they want to have the name "mungo" for one of their machines. They can have mungo.french.lan8.bath.ac.uk. We want someone who logs in to see the mungo.bath.ac.uk name in the login banner, not the mungo.lanXX.bath.ac.uk name and not just mungo. 00:35 < dho> and you can configure the login banner too 00:35 < usa> We don't want just mungo, cos that might be the french one, and we don't want to get people concerned if they connect via a different LAN. Yes we could hard code the banner in various places, but then we would have to make simular changes to "mary" and "midge". It is much simpler to just set the hostname to be what we want, and let the normal login program print out the normal banner. 00:37 < usa> Yes, we can configure the login banner, and yes we can hack the ftp server, and yes we can hack the sshd.... The point is that we don't have to. The hostname has nothing to do with the DNS. Of course the "domainname" command typically has nothing to do with the DNS either. 00:39 < dho> ok 00:40 -!- youngbull [n=youngbul@ti0025a380-dhcp1720.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 00:40 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:40 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 00:42 < usa> I can not see anything in the spread user guide which worries about the hostname, none of the pretty pictures shows a multihomed host so perhaps I need a more technical guide? 00:42 < dho> There's a limit on the length of the name, which is not large enough to contain a fully qualified domain name as per the spec. 00:43 -!- kanru [n=kanru@61-30-10-70.static.tfn.net.tw] has joined #go-nuts 00:43 < dho> And Spread talks over a single network segment, so if you want it talking over multiple segments, you have to either configure multiple spread segments, or talk over a more inclusive broadcast address (if that is an option) 00:43 < dho> (in a nutshell) 00:45 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f049008158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 00:48 < usa> If we had been running "spread" on mungo, then it would be able to talk to a dozen LANs directly, and could therefore just use normal broadcast addresses on each LAN. The "%h" parameter in the config file would resolve to mungo.bath.ac.uk, and everyone would be happy - we wouldn't have to add "spread" to the list of things to hack (/etc/issue, /etc/issue.net, ftpd, sshd). 00:48 < usa> Yes there is a limit on the length of the value returned by the uname system call. 00:48 < dho> except that all the other members of the spread ring need to know the hosts as well. 00:49 < dho> %h might work great locally, but not if you are machine1.fullyqualifieddomainname.com and you need to talk to machine2. and machine3. as well 00:50 < anticw> uname only exists for linux 00:50 < dho> anticw: ? 00:50 -!- youngbull [n=youngbul@ti0025a380-dhcp1720.bb.online.no] has left #go-nuts [] 00:50 < anticw> in Go 00:50 -!- jdp [n=justin@75.97.120.11.res-cmts.senj.ptd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:50 < anticw> i added code to use that and noticed the syscalls aren't plummed for freebsd & darwin 00:50 < anticw> usa == icarus right? 00:50 -!- youngbull [n=youngbul@ti0025a380-dhcp1720.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 00:50 < usa> anticw, yes 00:51 < dho> anticw: freebsd at least gets uname from sysctls iirc 00:51 < dho> which is why that wouldn't be there. 00:51 < dho> i'd guess darwin is similar. 00:51 < anticw> dho: well, you need struct Utsname too 00:51 < usa> uname is in POSIX (according to the linux manual pages in front of me) 00:51 < anticw> dho: i came across this fixing up the resolver and left it as a 'todo' for now 00:52 < anticw> my darwin/freebsd env's suck so unless i can make changes and break them (PLEASE GOD ALLOW THAT) some stuff has to wait 00:52 < gnuvince> Can string() convert from integer to a string? 00:52 < anticw> usa: it's just glue that's missing for now, i'll fix it tonight 00:52 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 00:52 < anticw> gnuvince: import strconv 00:52 < anticw> http://golang.org/search?q=Itoa 00:53 < gnuvince> thanks 00:53 < anticw> who runs that gobot thang? uriel? 00:53 < anticw> maybe we can have that reponde to !Token and poke that into godoc 00:53 -!- uxp [n=uxp@uxp.dsl.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53 < anticw> dho: btw, if you're looking to add some of this stuff i have a TODO list; maybe some coordination would be useful 00:54 -!- uxp [n=uxp@uxp.dsl.xmission.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:54 < dho> yeah, freebsd uses sysctls 00:55 < dho> I think that uname should probably move into os.uname since it isn't a syscall everywhere. 00:55 < anticw> dho: you're using freebsd 7.2 ? 00:55 < dho> 8-rel and head 00:55 < anticw> or 8 ? 00:55 < dho> but it should work on 7.2 00:55 < anticw> okies ... i'll snarf the ISOs 00:55 < dho> (8 is preferred...) 00:56 < anticw> 8.0 release good enough? head seems like a lot more work for no gain when it comes to go testing/validation 00:56 < dho> 8-rel is fine 00:56 < dho> s/fine/preferred/ 00:57 < dho> i was just saying that in case you meant you were snarfing the 7.2 isos :) 00:57 * dho -> heading home 00:57 < dho> back later 00:58 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:00 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:00 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@c-98-215-178-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:01 < usa> anticw, uname is in 10th edition Unix as well, but as a library routine. 01:02 < anticw> usa: it's not a problem making it work for other OSes, it's just one on many missing system calls 01:02 < anticw> it's on my list :-) 01:02 < anticw> maybe tonight ill get it sorted for darwin, freebsd probably tomorrow 01:03 -!- jdp [n=justin@75.97.120.11.res-cmts.senj.ptd.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:05 < usa> anticw, if you can look at issue 181097 on the code tracker whilst you are doing it, I would appreciate it. 01:06 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [] 01:09 -!- triplez [n=triplez@cm52.sigma225.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [] 01:16 -!- xifle [n=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has joined #go-nuts 01:17 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:18 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@wikipedia/elfix] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:18 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 01:19 -!- youngbull [n=youngbul@ti0025a380-dhcp1720.bb.online.no] has left #go-nuts [] 01:40 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:40 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 01:42 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Success] 01:42 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 01:44 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 01:45 -!- mbarkhau1 [n=koloss@p54A7E38F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:46 -!- mbarkhau [n=koloss@p54A7E337.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:49 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 01:53 -!- xifle [n=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:53 -!- asyncster [n=asyncste@206.169.213.106] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:54 -!- difekta [n=clays@75.101.111.19] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:58 < plexdev> http://is.gd/5HfWn by [Rob Pike] in go/src/pkg/gob/ -- trivial bug: []byte is special but [3]byte is not. 02:14 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has joined #go-nuts 02:14 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75CA1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 02:17 -!- me__ [n=me@c-68-55-179-48.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:24 -!- crakrjak [n=merc@rrcs-70-62-156-154.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:27 < jackman> ummm... 02:27 < jackman> [3]byte is an array while []byte is a slice, no? 02:29 < jessta> yeah 02:30 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:34 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.201.143] has quit ["reboot"] 02:35 -!- Adys [n=Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has joined #go-nuts 02:35 -!- wurtog [n=wurtog@189.104.90.65] has joined #go-nuts 02:35 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 02:36 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.static.exetel.com.au] has joined #go-nuts 02:37 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:37 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.201.143] has joined #go-nuts 02:38 -!- Amaranth__ [n=travis@97-114-240-143.sxcy.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:39 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:40 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 02:50 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has joined #go-nuts 02:51 -!- fwiffo [n=fwiffo@unaffiliated/fwiffo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@c-98-215-178-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:00 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has joined #go-nuts 03:03 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 03:05 -!- waht2 [n=sgnod@pool-96-250-179-214.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:05 < waht2> is this the channel for the go by google or the go by those other guys 03:05 -!- Xarver [n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:06 -!- Brandon\wcr [n=wcr@unaffiliated/warcrime] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:06 <+iant> go by google 03:06 < waht2> so does go work on android phones 03:06 -!- peterallenwebb [n=peterall@c-68-40-48-227.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:06 -!- Xarver [n=kenny@cpe-76-173-101-172.socal.res.rr.com] has left #go-nuts ["Leaving"] 03:06 < waht2> are there any books on go 03:07 < waht2> how long till microsoft releases g++ 03:07 <+iant> people have been able to use Go to build a program which runs on Android, but you have to upload it using the adb debugger or something like that 03:07 <+iant> there are no books on Go 03:07 <+iant> ask Microsoft 03:07 < waht2> is go going to standardized by iso 03:07 <+iant> not in the foreseeable future 03:08 < waht2> so what's the selling points of go 03:08 <+iant> see http://golang.org/ 03:08 -!- Brandon\wcr [n=wcr@unaffiliated/warcrime] has joined #go-nuts 03:09 -!- Amaranth__ [n=travis@97-114-240-143.sxcy.qwest.net] has quit [Success] 03:10 < jackman> It's awesome. 03:10 < jackman> It's like the only language that has CSP without it being weirdly tacked on. 03:11 < jackman> It's FAST. 03:11 < skelterjohn> whenever someone talks about CSP I hear "constraint satisfaction problem" in my head 03:11 < me__> it has a cool mascot 03:11 < skelterjohn> and i have a lot of trouble remembering what they're actually talking about 03:11 < jackman> lmao 03:11 < jackman> CSP==Anal Retention, then? 03:12 < skelterjohn> ? 03:12 < jackman> err... maybe the lack thereof? 03:12 < me__> complicated squirrely processes 03:13 < waht2> so with go you can created executable binaries? 03:13 <+iant> yes 03:13 < waht2> when was the last time somebody made a language like that 03:14 < waht2> interesting 03:14 < jackman> ummm... 03:14 < jackman> 1970? 03:14 < waht2> that's what i mean 03:14 < goplexian> waht2, yes, thats the point 03:14 < waht2> if you want a language that can actually make binary executables your most modern choice is c++ 03:14 < waht2> oh i like this already 03:15 < jackman> everything after that was a scripting language, a ripoff of C, or a compiled scripting language. 03:15 < waht2> at first I thought oh great google is coming out with some scripting lang or java wannabe just to muddy the waters against microsoft 03:15 < goplexian> waht2, was the most modern choice, now there is also Go :P 03:15 < waht2> well i'm sold 03:15 < waht2> at least somewhat 03:15 < jackman> the video is awesome. 03:15 < waht2> i'll try it 03:15 < jackman> did you already see it? 03:15 < skelterjohn> i'm pretty sure that go wasn't created as a strategic decision :) 03:15 <+iant> in fairness there have been other compiled languages, though none are very popular that I know of; e.g., Ada 03:16 < jackman> Is ada the one that uses the symbols? 03:16 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 03:16 < goplexian> skelterjohn, I think its highly strategic 03:16 < waht2> so who's going to write the book for oreilly 03:16 < waht2> heh 03:16 < me__> jackman: no, i think you're thinking of apl? Ada uses english... 03:16 < waht2> well i hope there's some good documentation though 03:16 <+iant> jackman: not sure what you mean, Ada is a sort of PL/1 like language from the US DoD 03:17 < waht2> yeah but ada predates c++ doesn't it 03:17 <+iant> they were developed around the same time, I suppose 03:17 < jackman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language) 03:18 < waht2> the thing thats too bad is microsoft used the "c" name in c# to get it's books to take shelf space at the bookstore and get into managers minds as a c derivative 03:18 < skelterjohn> goplexian: it's possible that google encouraged it because it was strategic, but i think the original whiteboard meeting was just some guys thinking about what would make a cool language 03:18 < jackman> I just read the Art of Unix Programming... 03:18 < jackman> It made me think how sad the whole programming situation was. 03:18 < jackman> Then I watched the Go Tech Talk. :) 03:18 < waht2> your aaverage pointy hair wont recognize c# is like java++ and go is the real next c 03:19 < jackman> If you haven't seen this, you should: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmxnCEa8Ctw 03:19 < waht2> this go tech talk is on the website 03:19 < waht2> oh i see it 03:19 < jackman> this one is different 03:19 < jackman> it's pre-go 03:19 < jackman> NewSqueak 03:20 < jackman> Rob Pike is like the Tyler Durden of programming. 03:21 < jessta> lol, codes like you want to code? 03:21 < jackman> YES! 03:21 < jackman> Have you seen Rob Pike? 03:21 < wurtog> will go have the name changed or not ? 03:22 < waht2> i swear the word orthogonal is almost as annoying as paradigm 03:25 < waht2> so what will be the first os written in go 03:25 < waht2> and why would it be better than an os written in c 03:26 < jackman> probably compile time. :) 03:26 -!- wurtog [n=wurtog@189.104.90.65] has left #go-nuts ["Leaving"] 03:26 < waht2> Performance: typically within 10-20% of C. 03:26 < waht2> :( 03:29 < jackman> That's the point, isn't it? 03:29 < jackman> A programmer friendly language that competes with C? 03:30 < goplexian> wurtog I get the impression that the answer is probably no, but I think it is a matter for managers not developers 03:31 < goplexian> dangit didnt see he left 03:32 < dho> oh my god 03:33 < jackman> Why would anyone /want/ to change the language? Is something wrong with it? 03:33 < dho> i give up on qtvali 03:34 < goplexian> dho, what took you so long? 03:34 < dho> He kept almost getting the point in the last thread 03:34 < dho> There have now been at least 5 unique people asking him to shut the fuck up and code 03:34 < anticw> dho: what point is that? 03:34 < dho> anticw: any of them 03:35 < dho> but it would be like another follow-up email he would write that would completely obliterate it 03:35 < dho> and seriously, how does he spend like 20 hours a day writing and replying to a mailing list 03:35 < dho> oh my god 03:35 < anticw> anyhow, golang S/N is really bad now because of the google hype associated with it 03:36 < dho> seriously, is there a reliable way for me to trash any topics that he starts and any posts or replies to his posts that appear on the list using gmail? 03:36 < dho> sieve or something? 03:36 < anticw> dho: gmail has filters 03:36 < dho> where are they 03:36 < dho> oh there they are 03:37 < goplexian> anticw, yeah its getting pretty bad, I think some are purposefully trying to be disruptive now 03:37 * dho marks anything from qtvali@gmail.com, containing qtvali or tambet in the text go to the trash 03:37 < goplexian> lol 03:38 < dho> i think this will make my life easier 03:38 < dho> now i don't have to read his reply to my post either 03:38 < dho> or anybody replying to him 03:38 < dho> what a great idea 03:38 < anticw> i was thinking about a bay area Go Meetup at some point, not sure though, might turn into a pointless wankfest 03:40 < dho> too bad i'm not there anymore 03:40 * dho is in balto 03:40 < dho> seems to be a high concentration of interested people at jhu 03:40 < dho> anyway, i'm gonna jet 03:40 < goplexian> night 03:40 < dho> anticw: good luck with the freebsd stuff, let me know if you have any questions 03:41 < dho> night 03:41 -!- NinoScript [n=Adium@pc-201-142-239-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:41 < jackman> night 03:41 -!- peterallenwebb [n=peterall@c-68-40-48-227.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 03:41 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 03:41 < goplexian> anyone using a tiling WM by chance? 03:42 < jackman> when i use one, yes. :) 03:42 < jackman> it's been a while, tho. 03:42 < goplexian> man tiling wm's rock, i just started using one 03:42 -!- peterallenwebb [n=peterall@c-68-40-48-227.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:43 < goplexian> well actually its been about a week, but I gotta say I love it 03:45 -!- peterallenwebb [n=peterall@c-68-40-48-227.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 03:45 < jackman> Which one do you use? 03:45 < jackman> I was switching around... 03:45 < goplexian> xmonad 03:45 -!- peterallenwebb [n=peterall@c-68-40-48-227.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:45 < jackman> The key bindings had me moving around. 03:46 < jackman> I was using ion primarily, tho. 03:46 < goplexian> I've heard of ion haven't tried it though 03:48 -!- codedread [i=180dd699@gateway/web/freenode/x-pfwnwfthlapyqfei] has joined #go-nuts 03:48 -!- codedread [i=180dd699@gateway/web/freenode/x-pfwnwfthlapyqfei] has left #go-nuts [] 03:49 < kfx> I've used dwm almost exclusively since it came out 03:50 < jackman> kfx/goplexian: what do you think of the key bindings? 03:50 < kfx> jackman: I move the Mod-[1-9] keys (for tag switching) up to the function keys 03:50 < kfx> and I move mod-enter to mod-z 03:51 < kfx> and other than that I use them as provided in config.def.h 03:51 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:51 -!- senneth [i=senneth@irssi/staff/senneth] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:52 -!- senneth [i=senneth@irssi/staff/senneth] has joined #go-nuts 03:52 < goplexian> well I use emacs so I had to set xmonad to use the win-logo button but otherwise they seem to work fine, I'm also using xmobar 03:52 < kfx> no window manager is safe from emacs 03:52 < goplexian> heh no, 03:52 < goplexian> but thats ok, its worth the sacrifice 03:53 < goplexian> someday it will just be emacs running directly ontop of the linux kernel 03:53 < goplexian> then I wont need a wm 03:54 < kfx> or a shower 03:54 < jackman> lmao 03:54 < goplexian> lol 03:55 < jackman> is emacs starting to use the windows button? 03:56 < goplexian> no thats why i was able to use it for the wm in place of alt 03:56 < jackman> I can't seem to find a reference to what NewSqueak was actually used for. 03:56 < jackman> Pike said he wrote it to write a wm... 03:57 < jackman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newsqueak 03:58 < me__> inspired Alef, later Limbo... 03:59 < NinoScript> ;' 04:00 < goplexian> Now I know I remember seeing a lot of positive articles when Go was first released, I think this is rather biased http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(programming_language)#Reception 04:01 < goplexian> I've never heard of informationweek, but why do they get top paragraph when it comes to "Reception" for Go? 04:02 < jackman> wow 04:02 < jackman> that section is a little bitchy 04:03 < peterallenwebb> I saw that on wikipedia too. The article is pretty hilarious. 04:03 < kfx> informationweek is an industry rag that used to get mailed out for free to everyone 04:03 < peterallenwebb> Basically, the guy is like "I have a friend that programs. He says there are already enough languages." 04:03 < goplexian> and it doesn't even make sense, its called reception but he second paragraph is just a quote from Pike, how is that considered reception? 04:04 < kfx> then their advertisers got sick of paying I guess because now it's just another online tech 'magazine' 04:04 < waht2> because google runs google and can put the search results anyways they want 04:05 < kfx> "A blog posting in InformationWeek considers the creation of a new language to be unjustified given that many other languages already existed," 04:05 < goplexian> by virtue of the fact that the information is taken from "a blog posting" by information week, I think I should edit the page and add some positive other "blog postings" about Go 04:05 < kfx> this is about on par with the writing in informationweek, historically speaking 04:05 < kfx> unless they can use the term 'service oriented architecture' they hate it 04:05 < jackman> lol 04:05 < kfx> but you'd think they'd at least be clever enough to avoid the 'stop having ideas, we have enough' argument 04:06 < goplexian> I guess they just are not that clever 04:06 < kfx> which would be why they went out of print 04:07 < goplexian> Yeah, I'm going to edit that page, that bugs me 04:07 < jackman> can we include something like "After Google hosted one of their Tech Talks with Rob Pike presenting the language, it has gained popularity and momentum. IRC-ers say, 'It's AWESOME!'" 04:07 < goplexian> I've lost 50lbs already! 04:07 < jackman> hehehe 04:07 < JBeshir> My bald patch is completely gone! 04:08 < kfx> Search Results Found 670 items in InformationWeek for coding 04:09 < kfx> Search Results Found 13867 items in InformationWeek for enterprise 04:09 < jackman> You can say something like "As of [today], there are x regulars on the IRC channel dedicated to Go and y subscribers to the mailing list. The golang.com website has gotten z hits and the Tech Talk [insert variable here] hits. 04:09 < kfx> that's about how I remember their priorities 04:09 < peterallenwebb> zomg. That article is the third google result I get for "go programming language". 04:10 < goplexian> I guess all that SEO paid off then :/ 04:10 < JBeshir> SEO? It's Wikipedia... 04:10 < goplexian> Oh i thought he meant the newsweek article 04:11 < peterallenwebb> meant the informationweek article. 04:11 < goplexian> s/new/information/week 04:11 < JBeshir> Huh. 04:11 < JBeshir> I don't get it on the first page at all. 04:11 < goplexian> yeah that 04:13 < peterallenwebb> it is further down for me when i log out of my google account but still there. 04:13 < peterallenwebb> they so crazy. 04:15 < waht2> so what if you wrote a c compiler in go 04:15 < waht2> would it be better 04:15 < kfx> give it a try 04:15 < kfx> let us know what you find out 04:15 < waht2> wait wait what if you wrong the c# runtime in go 04:15 < waht2> would it improve performance 04:16 < jackman> everything's better in go. 04:16 < waht2> i can't wait for visual studio go 04:16 < kfx> did you use wrong as a verb because you knew it wouldn't be write 04:16 < waht2> visual go is gonna be awesome 04:16 < waht2> woah that was weird 04:16 < waht2> my brain is retarded 04:17 < waht2> what kind of animal will be on the cover of the go book from oreilly 04:18 < waht2> the publishing industry must love this flood of languages 04:19 < peterallenwebb> This guy thinks Go was necessary for google to acheive four-ness: http://kosmaczewski.net/2009/11/12/thoughts-about-googles-go-programming-language/ 04:19 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has joined #go-nuts 04:19 < waht2> yeah every big company needs a language 04:19 < waht2> can you really be strong if you have to use someone else languate 04:20 < waht2> its bad enough the andriod phone uses java from oracle 04:20 -!- binrapt [i=void@unaffiliated/binrapt] has left #go-nuts [] 04:20 < waht2> besides if they are going to legendary like bell labs they need to churn out some langs 04:20 -!- sanjid [n=sanjid@unaffiliated/sanjid] has joined #go-nuts 04:20 < waht2> unfortunately unlike bell labs nobel prizes in physics are unlikely 04:21 < sanjid> oh, I see why you're sucking go' dick 04:21 < sanjid> *go's 04:21 < waht2> yeah because it's the best 04:21 < waht2> sanjid is a hater stuck in the past using old languages 04:21 < sanjid> dude, don't advertise your language like you're being paid to 04:21 < waht2> can't keep up with changing tech 04:21 < sanjid> tbh, I learned to code 6 months ago 04:21 < sanjid> I'm still picking a language 04:21 < sanjid> you're off 04:21 < waht2> well pick go 04:22 < waht2> its the best 04:22 < sanjid> whatever you say 04:23 < waht2> think about it by the time most of these ruby and c# weenies get around to learning go you'll already have years experience 04:23 < KirkMcDonald> Why would you pick just one language? 04:23 < sanjid> exactly, I haven't 04:23 < waht2> because you have to be decisive 04:23 < sanjid> I've gotten the hang of C, and I'm learning python 04:23 < KirkMcDonald> waht2: I see. 04:23 < waht2> you have to be able to make executive decisions 04:24 < waht2> python, that's old 04:24 < waht2> at leasy use ruby so you don't get left behind 04:25 -!- sanjid [n=sanjid@unaffiliated/sanjid] has left #go-nuts [] 04:25 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 04:26 < waht2> google should offer to donate money colleges if they switch the CS curriculum to use go exclusively 04:26 < waht2> it will speed up adoption 04:27 < goplexian> O_o 04:29 < waht2> oh no i just realized 04:29 < waht2> what if go ends up like plan 9 04:29 < waht2> rob pike has the stench of failure on him from plan 9 04:29 < waht2> oh crap 04:29 < waht2> they should fire him and bring in someone more successful 04:29 < goplexian> quick, go find another language! 04:29 < waht2> damn 04:29 < goplexian> you must hurry waht2 go now, let nothing stop you 04:30 < KirkMcDonald> Go now! For the good of the city! 04:30 < waht2> lmao 04:30 < waht2> dude they should hire the guy from ruby 04:31 < waht2> that will improve go and kill off ruby at the same time 04:31 < waht2> kill two birds 04:31 < jackman> the last thing we need is another delphi 04:31 < jackman> *shudders* 04:31 < waht2> who invented delphi 04:31 < waht2> hopefully he now works at mcdonalds 04:32 < jackman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi_programming_language 04:32 < waht2> yeah i know 04:32 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [] 04:33 < waht2> anyone who needs to make 64bit stuff is screwed waiting for a new compiler 04:33 < jackman> the guy (Anders) went from Pascal to Delphi to C#. 04:33 < waht2> thats already a year behind schedule 04:33 < waht2> oh well that explains a lot about why c# blows 04:33 < waht2> wait what company made delphi anyways 04:33 < waht2> its probably out of business 04:33 < jackman> Borland 04:33 < jackman> err... 04:33 < waht2> wait 04:34 < jackman> At least it was Borland when our company started using it. 04:34 < KirkMcDonald> Borland, yes. 04:34 < NinoScript> Hi hi! :D I'm new here! 04:34 < waht2> who uses an os thats not backed by a giant company 04:34 < jackman> is linux backed by a giant company? 04:34 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: Several. 04:34 < jackman> Oh. 04:34 < jackman> I only notice those kinds of details when money is exchanged. :) 04:35 < KirkMcDonald> Developer time is money. 04:35 < waht2> ibm? 04:35 < waht2> linux didn't really get mainstream legitimacy until ibm commited to it 04:35 < jackman> ibm, novell, red hat, hp... 04:36 -!- path[l] [i=UPP@120.138.102.34] has joined #go-nuts 04:36 < goplexian> waht2, actually it was only because linux was legitimate that IBM commited to it. 04:36 < waht2> no suits took linux seriously before that 04:37 < waht2> if you don't have the suits you're just an oddity for professors and longhairs 04:37 < goplexian> at the time when IBM jumped on board Linux was running more than half of all website on the interwebs, not to mention running on a great deal of serious backroom company servers 04:38 -!- Brandon\wcr [n=wcr@unaffiliated/warcrime] has quit [] 04:41 < waht2> if by websites you mean one page homepages on hotbot or lycos or whatever the hell it was 04:41 < waht2> i remember one day 40,000 sites all switched to linux at once...when one server filled with a bunch of no traffic homepages was swapped 04:42 < waht2> big woop 04:42 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42 < goplexian> waht2, do you know much about irc, I'm just wondering if there is a way I can ignore someone? 04:45 < waht2> no i don't know i'm kind of new to this whole intertubes thing 04:45 < waht2> is it like aol 04:45 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has left #go-nuts [] 04:46 < waht2> Solaris Remains Top Choice Among Fortune 100 04:46 < KirkMcDonald> Netcraft confirms it! 04:47 < waht2> yeah but over 10,000,000 final fantasy 7 fansites are hosted on linux 04:47 < waht2> its serious stuff 04:48 < KirkMcDonald> Certainly! Now, Final Fantasy 8 would be a different matter. 04:48 -!- SoniaKeys [n=soniakey@c-76-118-178-209.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:49 < waht2> true freebsd truely dominates there 04:50 < waht2> chock up another win for bsd 04:50 < waht2> that'll teach those gpl guys 04:50 -!- peterallenwebb [n=peterall@c-68-40-48-227.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:51 < goplexian> yeah its not like Google Search is running on Linux or anything 04:53 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:53 < waht2> yeah but what does bing run 04:54 < waht2> thats the question 04:54 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:54 < waht2> heh 04:54 < waht2> they use linux 04:55 < waht2> microsoft at least tried to act tough and use bsd 04:55 < waht2> back in the day 04:55 < drhodes> bing runs on the blood of kittens, I see them trucking em in by the pallet every morning 04:55 < KirkMcDonald> Microsoft is more green than that. 04:56 < KirkMcDonald> They use the whole kitten. 04:56 < drhodes> ok, shelter kittens 04:56 < goplexian> and they recycle the blood afterwards, very small footprint 04:57 < waht2> wow i didn't know bing had a finance section 04:58 < goplexian> you should check it out 04:59 < waht2> yeah 04:59 < waht2> its awesome 04:59 < waht2> wait so who is going to buy twitter google or microsoft 04:59 < waht2> or did they already get bought 04:59 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:59 < anticw> this is getting very off-topic... 04:59 < jackman> Twitter is too annoying to be useful. 04:59 < jackman> So... Microsoft. 04:59 < goplexian> heh 05:00 < waht2> but twitter is so hip 05:00 < waht2> oh 05:00 < waht2> i guess apple will buy it 05:00 -!- robot12 [n=root@robot12.kgts.ru] has joined #go-nuts 05:00 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:01 < waht2> when is baidu going to come out with an english version 05:01 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 05:01 < waht2> i can't wait for baidu to release a browser 05:01 < waht2> and a programming lanuage 05:01 < waht2> hell yeah 05:01 < anticw> seriously, i'm pretty 'loud' myself, but there are three or more pages of pointless jabbering in scrollback... can you lot perhaps just take it somewhere else? 05:01 < jackman> google sponsored products aren't good enough for you? 05:01 < jackman> where should we go? 05:01 < waht2> google is ok but google is so "now" but baidu is the future 05:02 < waht2> i want to stay one step ahead of the curve 05:02 < anticw> jackman: make a channel 05:02 < waht2> leverage no technologies 05:02 < waht2> create new synnergies 05:02 < waht2> maximize the paradigm 05:02 < waht2> you know 05:03 < waht2> i want to leverage the best in breed to take my enterprise to the next level 05:03 -!- Gracenotes [n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 05:04 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:06 < waht2> i wonder 05:06 < waht2> is google too big to fail? 05:07 <+iant> This is getting really off-topic for this channel 05:07 < jackman> sorry 05:07 < jackman> i'll be quiet now. 05:07 <+iant> thanks 05:07 < waht2> go: great language or greatest language 05:09 < jackman> So... Just out of curiousity, what is the thrust of this channel? 05:09 < jackman> Is it supposed to be a help channel or just general conversation related to go? 05:10 <+iant> Any of the above, I think, as long as it is in fact related to Go somehow 05:10 < jackman> I just joined the mailing list and I was looking at the archives... 05:10 < jackman> I am seeing that there is some contention about the enforced curly brace placement. 05:11 < jackman> Was there a vote or was it just dictacted that all braced functions must be followed by a brace on the same line? 05:11 < KirkMcDonald> I am not altogether fond of the newline/semicolon change, in its current incarnation. 05:11 <+iant> After discussion, it was dictated 05:11 < KirkMcDonald> I like the idea of permitting newlines as statement terminators. 05:12 < KirkMcDonald> I do not like implemented it as a lexical hack. 05:12 < KirkMcDonald> implementing* 05:13 < waht2> seriously though why don't the go people just work on c++0x 05:13 < waht2> isn't it kind of vain to make a whole new systems language 05:13 < KirkMcDonald> waht2: Because so's yer face. 05:13 <+iant> waht2: I think that is covered in the FAQ 05:13 < jackman> I have always used main() \n { \n code \n }. It makes the code cleaner/easier to read IMHO. 05:13 < jackman> ya 05:13 < waht2> uhh 05:13 < jackman> i saw it in the faq 05:13 < waht2> heh 05:13 < jackman> but i just want the option. 05:14 <+iant> I meant the question about c++0x is in the FAQ 05:15 < waht2> i don't see it 05:15 < jackman> link? 05:15 < KirkMcDonald> I had been using a style where I was splitting function signatures across multiple lines, but had to abandon it given the newline change. 05:15 < waht2> but also aren't they kind of overrating the compiling time savings 05:15 < KirkMcDonald> Which annoyed me. 05:15 <+iant> waht2: http://golang.org/doc/go_lang_faq.html#creating_a_new_language 05:15 < KirkMcDonald> waht2: No. 05:15 < waht2> does google have some huge private code that takes 100 hours to compile or something 05:16 < KirkMcDonald> Creating a new language will not solve the compilation times of existing C++ code-bases. 05:16 < waht2> why is saving compile time a big deal for a language that has binary executables 05:16 < waht2> sure compile time maybe useful in something like perl but the users aren't going to be compiling their operating system or browser 05:17 < KirkMcDonald> Clearly it is important to someone. 05:18 < waht2> yeah some guys at google with 20% of their work schedule to fool around in 05:18 < jackman> the only easy fix i see is to include gofmt in a makefile to convert all the code to new style into a new directory and compile that 05:19 < waht2> i mean are they envisioning some new advantage for having users compile it or something 05:19 < KirkMcDonald> It is about having faster turnaround in the development cycle. 05:19 < waht2> what kind of apps take that long to compile 05:20 < jackman> KirkMcDonald: are you talking about keystrokes, then? 05:20 < goplexian> serious ones 100k of C/C++ can take a while to compile, and Go can do it in seconds 05:20 < jackman> my pinky has to do something or it'll feel left out. :( 05:20 * mauke rants a bit about "C/C++" 05:20 < waht2> how long does a linux kernel take to compile 05:20 < jackman> 5 min? 05:20 < waht2> i don't bother compiling them anymore but i seem to remember pretty fast 05:21 < waht2> yes 05:21 < waht2> so wow lets rewrite linux in go so it compiles in 30 seconds 05:21 < waht2> that will save time 05:21 < jackman> ya... 05:21 < mauke> or you could compile it using tinycc :-) 05:22 < jackman> So... Are there other people who care about braces or am I talking to myself? 05:22 < waht2> what is the issue with braces 05:23 < jackman> I like them on their own lines. Go doesn't. 05:23 <+iant> the general feeling of the Go developers is that there should be just one right way to format a program; it doesn't have to be the best possible way, it just has to be adequate 05:24 < waht2> you can't put the bracket on its own line? 05:24 < waht2> doesn't that get ugly? 05:24 < jackman> iant: that sounds a little arrogant. 05:24 < waht2> so we all have to code in the style rob pike likes 05:24 < waht2> great 05:24 < anticw> waht2: you can compile a kernel in 30s right now 05:24 <+iant> jackman: the goal is not arrogance; it is removing style issues as an issue 05:24 <+iant> there is a gofmt program which can rewrite Go programs into the required style 05:24 < waht2> well then just imagine if we rewrite linux go it might compile in 5 seconds! imagine the savings in development time 05:24 < anticw> waht2: you don't *have* to do anything, you have choices 05:25 < jackman> iant: doesn't gofmt write the code back to the original file? 05:25 < waht2> but he just said you dont have a choice, you can't use the bracket that way 05:25 < anticw> compilation time isn't that interesting, i wish it was never made much a big deal of 05:25 <+iant> jackman: it can be used that way, but there are other ways to use it also 05:25 < waht2> but thats one of the only real selling points 05:25 < jackman> iant: that means that i can't look at my style when I edit the code again. 05:25 < anticw> waht2: http://python.org/ 05:25 < waht2> what else do they have to make a big deal of 05:25 < waht2> what about python 05:26 < anticw> Go isn't for you, that's fine ... move along then 05:26 < waht2> well if google wants this thing to help them dominate the market you cant tell too many to move on 05:26 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 05:27 <+iant> Go is intended to be an alternative which we hope will be useful both inside and outside of Google; our goal is not to dominate the market 05:27 -!- nealmcb [n=neal@ubuntu/member/nealmcb] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:27 < waht2> you work for google 05:27 <+iant> yes 05:27 < anticw> i dont 05:27 < anticw> and i'm the one who said it 05:28 < Ycros> waht2: you don't like it, well then, don't use it. Thousands of languages out there :) 05:29 < waht2> i'm just saying argueing over this syntax rules is like arguing what color to paint a toolshed or how ever that old saying goes 05:29 < waht2> tell me what the language can do for me now how the brackets are different from c 05:29 < waht2> who cares 05:30 < anticw> read the faq, check the examples 05:30 < KirkMcDonald> Or just read the spec. 05:30 < waht2> thats what was wrong with c++ i feel, the brackets where just not right, maybe with new brackets we can have a better future 05:31 < anticw> if you think brackets are what was wrong with c++, well, i think you'll find a lot of people who have bigger complaints 05:31 < Ycros> waht2: arguing over syntax rules IS like painting a bikeshed, which is exactly why there is a set of rules for go, and a program to enforce them 05:32 < Ycros> jackman: but maybe that comment should have been pointed at you 05:32 < jackman> Ycros: Ya... I'm not too broken up about it. I'll either just adapt or use gofmt. :) 05:33 < jessta> code formating is important, human beings do really good pattern matching, but only if the pattern is visable 05:33 < jackman> Ycros: I was just hoping someone was taking votes. :) 05:33 < jessta> having all go code with the same formating leads to shallower bugs 05:34 < jackman> jessta: that's why i like lots of newlines and whitespace (in response to pattern matching). 05:34 < Ycros> jackman: votes can be taken, and if accepted, gofmt can be altered :P 05:34 < jackman> it's just easier. 05:34 < jessta> jackman: good for you, but bad for everyone else if it's different 05:35 < jackman> Is the most efficient means of managing gofmt and my coding style to incorporate it into makefile? 05:35 < anticw> teach your editor how to invoke gofmt 05:35 < jackman> well, yes, that's the idea -- i just don't want to ever see the new style. i want it kept hiddent from me. 05:36 < skelterjohn> why keep formatting hidden? 05:36 < skelterjohn> removes the point of formatting 05:36 < anticw> i think most common editors will have decent support fairly soon, including formatting rules 05:37 < jackman> skelterjohn: it's just what we've been talking about. humans are pattern matchers, but only with pattern's they're familiar with and can easily be seen. 05:37 < anticw> iant: is here a plan to move the section that holds the 'reflection' data at some point? 05:37 < anticw> iant: i'm talking 6g/6l mostly 05:38 < jessta> jackman: learning a new style isn't hard, and it will allow you to read other people's code 05:38 <+iant> anticw: move it where? I'm not sure I understand the question 05:38 < skelterjohn> jackman: right, and if you have your editor hide the true formatting somehow, you will never become familiar with the common go formatting 05:38 < KirkMcDonald> It is even possible to convince e.g. vim to use different styles under different conditions. 05:38 < anticw> iant: it seems right now it looks like a symbol table so strip removes it 05:38 < anticw> iant: and then the runtime barfs 05:38 < jackman> someone already mentioned on the mailing list the tendency for jobs to stick with one coding style 05:39 < jackman> it's about flexibility 05:39 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:39 <+iant> anticw: that's interesting; could you open an issue for that if there isn't one already? 05:39 < jackman> you're asking me (the human) to be flexible 05:39 < jackman> it seems like the software should be adapting to the human, not the other way around. 05:39 <+iant> anticw: I think there is a general plan to add more standard debug info, which might solve that problem 05:39 < skelterjohn> we've tried that 05:39 < skelterjohn> now we're trying the other way around ;) 05:40 -!- Xera` [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )"] 05:40 < anticw> iant: actually, what i see now is even worse, maybe strip is horribly confused 05:41 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 05:41 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:42 -!- gnibbler_ [n=duckman@124-168-79-73.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 05:42 < jessta> jackman: the software is adapting to the human, just not one human 05:42 < skelterjohn> humans are better at adapting than humans, anyway 05:43 < jackman> jessta: am i not human? 05:43 < skelterjohn> the only thing i don't like about gofmt is the one liner functions 05:43 < skelterjohn> i like functions to be at least three lines 05:43 < jessta> skelterjohn: yeah, true 05:43 < skelterjohn> my eye sees a single line by itself as being a variable 05:43 < jessta> jackman: you're only one human 05:44 < jackman> jessta: yes, but i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one that likes K&R. 05:44 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:44 < jessta> jackman: and K&R is for C 05:44 < jackman> jessta: are you suggesting the software only needs to adapt to a specific set of humans, defined arbitrarily? 05:45 < goplexian> What do you think? A little more fair and balanced? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(programming_language)#Reception 05:45 < jackman> jessta: it's like saying green is superior. we should all wear green shirts. if you're not wearing a green shirt, you can't paint. 05:45 < jessta> I'm sugguesting that the software should adapt to a standard to make it easier for all humans 05:46 < skelterjohn> well, when the shirt color doesn't actually matter and people call people with different colored shirts ugly...then let's just have on colored shirt 05:46 < jackman> i'm not saying it's universally ugly. i'm just saying i don't like it. 05:47 < jackman> i like having my pencils on the right side of my drawer and the pens on the left. 05:47 < jackman> i like using a dvorak keyboard. 05:47 < jackman> i like coke, not pepsi 05:47 < jackman> i have a choice. 05:47 < jackman> i work well with the choices that i make 05:47 < goplexian> I used dvorak for a couple months 05:47 < anticw> you can teach gofmt to work differently 05:47 < KirkMcDonald> I use K&R pretty much any time I use braces in any language. 05:47 < jessta> you like coke not pepsi, but do you want to coke bottle to look like the pepsi bottle? 05:48 < NinoScript> I personally hate K&R style :P 05:48 < jackman> see? 05:48 < jackman> i don't care! 05:48 < jackman> use gofmt to output a variety of styles 05:48 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48 < jackman> if you like the recommended go style, then use it 05:48 < JBeshir> jackman: The problem is, other people need to be able to read your code too. 05:49 < jackman> then use gofmt with the default settings 05:49 -!- Spaghettini [n=Spaghett@vaxjo6.150.cust.blixtvik.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:49 * goplexian is upset nobody cares he fixed wikipedia tonight :( 05:49 < JBeshir> jackman: Alternative styles would be like letting you pick that everyone had to use a Dvorak keyboard. 05:49 < jackman> but the problem is that i have to add an additional step to my coding process just so i can compile 05:49 < skelterjohn> you don't have to use gofmt to compile?! 05:49 -!- ingmar5 [n=ingmar@2001:41d0:2:7518:1:3:3:7] has joined #go-nuts 05:49 < jackman> you don't have to use gofmt unless you just happen to code differently 05:50 < KirkMcDonald> Personally, I use four-space indents on my own code. So there. 05:50 < goplexian> you dont have to use gofmt at all 05:50 < jackman> all i'm saying is that human reading is one thing and compiler reading is another. 05:50 < skelterjohn> running gofmt never causes code that doesn't compile to start compiling 05:50 -!- KiNgMaR [n=ingmar@2001:41d0:2:7518:1:3:3:7] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:50 < skelterjohn> except in the cases where a syntax change was made to the language and gofmt was the chosen tool to change a file automatically 05:51 < anticw> iant: known issue it seems; http://code.google.com/p/go/issues/detail?id=261#c2 05:51 <+iant> anticw: OK, thanks 05:51 < KirkMcDonald> gofmt just gets and AST, then writes it back out, yes? 05:51 < KirkMcDonald> s/and/an/ 05:51 < anticw> KirkMcDonald: the semi's change did make some stuff a bit 'magical' 05:51 -!- gnibbler [n=duckman@124-168-93-3.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 05:51 < jackman> gcc doesn't care about coding style -- it just checks for tokens. 05:51 < jackman> go does 05:52 < jackman> the semicolons still get put in 05:52 < KirkMcDonald> anticw: Yet another reason why the semicolon stuff should be part of the syntax and not a lexical hack. 05:52 < anticw> right, the lexer does this ... so it's a bit more picky about some lexer details 05:52 < jackman> it's just that someone decided that coding style needed to be dictated 05:52 < JBeshir> jackman: Yes, it was. 05:53 < JBeshir> jackman: In order to ensure that code can always be read by other coders. 05:53 < skelterjohn> this is just one of many "it used to be this way, and i liked it this way" issues 05:53 < skelterjohn> things change 05:53 < jackman> I can read KNF just as well as I can read KR 05:53 < jackman> gcc will compile both 05:53 < skelterjohn> it was not uncommon for someone to look at someone else's code and call it ugly because of brace and newline policies 05:53 < jackman> i don't have to change KNF to KR to compile, tho. 05:54 < jackman> so run it through something like gofmt to reformat it? 05:54 < jackman> it's not like they're gonna care 05:54 < jackman> change it back! 05:54 < skelterjohn> so, both KNF and KR brace styles would compile fine in gc 05:54 < jackman> i'm using examples. 05:55 < skelterjohn> use more relevant ones, then 05:55 < jackman> those work 05:55 < jackman> KNF doesn't use a newline before brace, KR does. 05:55 < jackman> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style 05:56 < goplexian> iant, mind if I ask, is Ken Thompson more of a manager or adviser to Go, or does he actually code, I don't see any patches going in with his name 05:56 <+iant> He actually codes, he wrote most of the guts of the compiler; there have been several compiler patches from him 05:56 < goplexian> ah cool, thanks 05:56 < jackman> is there at least a switch that i can use that will permit me to say "don't put the semicolons in"? 05:57 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: This would be bad, to have such a thing. 05:57 < skelterjohn> don't know why you want that 05:57 < jackman> it's bad to have a switch? 05:57 < skelterjohn> code in different languages looks different 05:57 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: Yes! 05:57 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: This would effectively mean you have two incompatible versions of the language. 05:57 < skelterjohn> no one is saying "change gcc to only allow KR" 05:57 < skelterjohn> this is a new language that looks different, so you can adapt your familiar pattern set quickly 05:58 < NinoScript> I didn't know there were so many "named" styles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style 05:58 < jackman> all i want is braces on seperate lines. if someone'll just tell me how i can easily retain this coding style while being able to compile, i'll shut up. 05:59 * goplexian is looking at a picture of Ken Thompson and Ritchie receiving a medal from Pres Clinton 05:59 < skelterjohn> you can't. go requires braces to be on the same line 05:59 < skelterjohn> that's how the language works. 05:59 < jackman> it wasn't always that way. 05:59 < anticw> jackman: you can't right now 05:59 < skelterjohn> now it is. 05:59 < jackman> the change was just a hack. 05:59 < skelterjohn> it was a change, however you describe the process by which it happened 06:00 < jackman> was that a request? 06:00 < anticw> it's possible a cleaner implementation or later changes will make things more robust, i'm pretty sure people would consider a patch making it so 06:00 < KirkMcDonald> Hopefully they implement this functionality properly. 06:00 < goplexian> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Medal_lg.jpeg 06:01 < jackman> by hack, i mean a shallow change. 06:01 < jackman> that's the way it's described in the documentation. 06:01 < jackman> if it's a shallow change, why not the switch? 06:01 < KirkMcDonald> I would also not object to removing the newline-as-statement-separator entirely. 06:02 < KirkMcDonald> I would describe the change as a hack. 06:02 < jackman> switch = command line switch 06:02 < KirkMcDonald> As it was a simple change to the lexer, which sort of did it, but was also the wrong place to do it. 06:02 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: Because then you have two incompatible versions of the language. 06:03 < jackman> no... 06:03 < jackman> you have a compiler that will compile both. 06:03 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: Modulo the use of this switch. 06:04 < KirkMcDonald> jackman: Can you not imagine situations in which building code could rapidly become intensely annoying, given the existence of such a switch? 06:04 < jackman> ok... 06:04 -!- Garen [n=garen@cpe-75-87-255-36.natnow.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04 < jackman> so what about making gofmt a part of the parsing process? 06:05 < skelterjohn> that is the same as "no gofmt" 06:05 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:05 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has joined #go-nuts 06:06 < jackman> skelterjohn: what do you mean? 06:06 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:07 < skelterjohn> what does it mean to have gofmt as part of the parsing process? gofmt has to parse code in the first place 06:07 < skelterjohn> so if gofmt is part of parsing, and parsing is part of gofmt, then parsing and gofmt are the same process 06:07 < skelterjohn> or some such 06:07 < jackman> gofmt makes the corrections that need to be made to transition from old style to new style, no? 06:07 < skelterjohn> anyway it's all nonsense 06:08 < jackman> gofmt does parse, but it's not the only parsing that takes place in the compiling process. 06:08 < jackman> the compiler has to do some parsing, also. 06:08 < jessta> jackman: the wikipedia article about K&R style seems to say that the brace on it's own line for functions was due to a syntactic requirement 06:09 < anticw> the gofmt parser is NOT used by the compilers 06:09 < jackman> anticw: i'm not saying it is. 06:09 < anticw> if gofmt can 'fix' whatever style you chose into something that compiles, then it's possible to make a compile using go/parser that would work the way you wish 06:10 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10 < anticw> in fact, that would be a great intern project for someone 06:10 < jackman> all i'm saying is if the code exists in gofmt to make the corrections for old style to new, then why not tack it on to the front of the compiler? 06:10 < jackman> someone stated earlier that this was a dictated decision, to make the syntax less flexible. 06:11 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:11 < jackman> i want to talk to the dictators so that such a change will be possible. 06:11 < anticw> post politely to the list 06:11 < jackman> however it's done, i just want a compiler that's flexible to style. 06:11 < goplexian> Google summer of code project? =) 06:12 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:12 < KirkMcDonald> It would be something like a two-line change to Make.pkg. 06:12 < KirkMcDonald> Maybe three. 06:15 < NinoScript> IMO, if you just use the hard-recommended style and code daily, in (a lot) less than a week you'll be 100% productive again. 06:22 < skelterjohn> gofmt has two uses. 1) to enforce style 2) to update massive amounts of code when a syntax change is made to the language 06:22 < skelterjohn> adding gofmt to the compile step seems weird to me 06:23 < jackman> ok... 06:24 < jackman> to help me understand better, i would like to compare/contrast the go compile process to that of c++ 06:24 < jackman> in c++, you have a precompile stage, a parsing stage, a compile stage, and a linking stage 06:25 < jackman> (remove ignorance where needed) 06:25 < jackman> does go not follow a similar pattern? 06:25 < jackman> i assume there must be because the docs say they're jamming in semicolons. 06:25 < jackman> if you want, i can dig up supporting statements (i read it recently) 06:26 < skelterjohn> i don't think there is a precompile stage 06:26 < skelterjohn> no macros or anything 06:26 < skelterjohn> but i could be wrong 06:26 < skelterjohn> but i'm pretty sure parsing and compiling are two distinct steps 06:28 < skelterjohn> anyway, seems like a silly topic 06:28 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:29 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:30 -!- SoniaKeys [n=soniakey@c-76-118-178-209.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:31 -!- Elfix [i=elfix@divide.by.zero.at.shellium.org] has joined #go-nuts 06:48 -!- path[l] [i=UPP@120.138.102.34] has quit [] 06:50 -!- NinoScript [n=Adium@pc-201-142-239-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:01 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 07:13 < goplexian> I have a func that returns a struct, the struct has 1 field which is `arr [][]int` now this works `z:=[][]int{x,y};return{z}` but this does not work `return{[][]int{x,y}}` any ideas? 07:14 < jackman> a struct is a singular datatype recognized by the compiler 07:14 < goplexian> typo, actually this works `z:=[][]int{x,y};return struct_x{z}` but this does not work `return struct_x{[][]int{x,y}}` any ideas? 07:14 < jackman> or specific 07:14 < jackman> as you choose 07:15 < jackman> does struct_x and z have to be working off the same type declaration? 07:15 < goplexian> let me just whip up a gopaste one sec 07:15 < jackman> even if they have the same internal composition, the compiler may still choose to call them by different names if they are defined seperately. 07:17 < goplexian> aaaaaahhh!!! 07:18 < goplexian> gopaste down? 07:19 < jackman> Service Temporarily Unavailable 07:19 < goplexian> jackman, this will do http://paste.bradleygill.com/index.php?paste_id=27110 07:20 < jackman> i just posted to the mailing list btw 07:20 < jackman> you can tell me if i'm being to much of an ass. 07:21 < goplexian> doh, i seem to have left off a bracket 07:25 -!- Macpunk [n=macpunk@cpe-72-177-27-209.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 07:25 -!- mbarkhau1 [n=koloss@p54A7E38F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:25 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has joined #go-nuts 07:26 < jackman> ya.. 07:26 < jackman> that seams a little bizarre to me 07:26 < goplexian> i know 07:30 < jackman> hold on... 07:30 < jackman> foo is a 2d array, no? 07:30 < goplexian> yes 07:31 < goplexian> a slice of int slices 07:31 < jackman> i dunno 07:31 < jackman> :( 07:31 < jackman> sorry 07:31 < goplexian> no it works, i just forgot a bracket 07:31 < jackman> oh 07:31 < jackman> lol 07:31 < jackman> i thought you meant just in the pastebin. :P 07:32 < goplexian> ah no sorry, yeah im just sleep coding and forgot a bracket 07:32 < goplexian> both expressions work 07:33 < jackman> ok 07:33 < jackman> i'm going home 07:33 < jackman> ttyl 07:33 < goplexian> cya 07:33 < jackman> thanks for the conversation. :) 07:34 < goplexian> :P sorry for the confusion 07:34 < goplexian> off to bed, night all 07:36 -!- path[l] [n=path@59.162.86.164] has quit [] 07:36 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has joined #go-nuts 07:44 -!- codedread [i=180dd699@gateway/web/freenode/x-ndzueswvigiapnpw] has joined #go-nuts 07:44 -!- codedread [i=180dd699@gateway/web/freenode/x-ndzueswvigiapnpw] has left #go-nuts [] 07:45 < gnuvince> Does anyone know who that qtvali that posts 270 times per day on the mailing list is? 07:58 < vegai> rob pike's alter ego 08:06 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:08 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:09 < jessta> gnuvince: a genius, I'm sure 08:10 < jessta> and I wish he'd get a blog already 08:10 < rauli> has anyone wrapped SDL to go yet? 08:14 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:16 -!- ShadowIce [i=pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 08:16 < jessta> rauli: http://github.com/banthar/Go-SDL 08:17 < jessta> rauli: if you're looking for more bindings for stuff, http://go-lang.cat-v.org has a bunch of links 08:18 < rauli> SDL and OpenGL are enough for me :) 08:30 -!- murodes1 [n=James@124-169-145-61.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 08:30 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f049132220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 08:38 -!- Garen [n=garen@75.87.255.36] has joined #go-nuts 08:49 -!- murodese [n=James@124-169-145-61.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52 -!- lizzzy [i=7aac02eb@gateway/web/freenode/x-zljpxdhnywrfryqw] has joined #go-nuts 08:57 -!- p0g0__ [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57 -!- p0g0__ [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has joined #go-nuts 08:58 -!- lizzzy [i=7aac02eb@gateway/web/freenode/x-zljpxdhnywrfryqw] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] 09:04 -!- 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joined #go-nuts 13:01 < Henry_georgeist> hello all 13:01 < Henry_georgeist> how goes it? 13:09 < jhh> hi Henry 13:09 < jhh> it goes well, I'm defeating goyacc 13:11 < jhh> how are you, sir? 13:16 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:17 < napsy> are there any packages to do web programming in go? 13:18 -!- gkmngrgn [n=gkmngrgn@unaffiliated/gkmngrgn] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20 -!- iant [n=iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:20 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 13:34 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048076072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 13:36 -!- c0nfl|ct [n=tiago@83.240.182.196] has quit ["Saindo"] 13:37 -!- mssm [n=mssmfs@ip-95-221-91-60.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #go-nuts 13:47 -!- afurlan [n=afurlan@scorpion.mps.com.br] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53 < dho> good morning sirs and potential madams 13:54 < dho> napsy: there is pkg/http in the tree, and there is also webgo 13:56 < napsy> thanks 13:57 -!- hcatlin [n=hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 14:02 < dho> no problem 14:08 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.133.221] has joined #go-nuts 14:10 -!- p0g0__ [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14 -!- murodes1 [n=James@203-206-91-210.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:14 -!- murodese [n=James@203-206-91-210.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 14:46 -!- deso [n=deso@x0561a.wh30.tu-dresden.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:46 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:50 -!- jhh [n=jhh@f048076072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:54 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:56 < dho> well, finally a tow truck comes. it's nasty snow today 14:58 -!- alc [n=alc@222.128.133.221] has quit [] 15:08 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 15:08 -!- ztzg 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[n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:51 < jhh> dho: how's cgo going? 15:52 -!- tbellefy [n=tbellefy@bouncer.adicio.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:52 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:54 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.0.77] has joined #go-nuts 15:57 < jhh> yay my first goyacc parser works! 15:57 -!- tomestla [n=tom@87.100.115.249] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59 -!- SirDigbyC [n=Glasswor@c-98-213-216-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:59 -!- SirDigbyC [n=Glasswor@c-98-213-216-224.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 15:59 -!- eulenspiegel [n=eulenspi@unaffiliated/eulenspiegel] has joined #go-nuts 16:00 -!- amorpisseur [n=analogue@toulouse.jfg-networks.net] has quit [] 16:02 -!- lmoura [n=lauromou@200.184.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:12 -!- scm_ [i=justme@c176133.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #go-nuts 16:12 -!- chickamade [n=chickama@222.254.0.77] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16 -!- DerHorst [n=Horst@e176122217.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18 -!- tomestla [n=tom@87.100.115.249] has joined #go-nuts 16:25 -!- scm [i=justme@c133140.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26 -!- prip [n=_prip@host148-120-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:27 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@c-76-99-92-193.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:32 -!- tibshoot [n=tibshoot@linagora-230-146.pr0.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@cpe-67-241-129-149.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37 -!- newb [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 16:37 < dho> jhh: got all the patches that i'm getting done for now done yesterday 16:37 < dho> jhh: working on proc/debug for freebsd right now 16:38 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:39 -!- plainhao [n=plainhao@mail.xbiotica.com] has quit [] 16:39 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@cpe-67-241-129-149.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:39 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:41 -!- prip [n=_prip@host76-195-dynamic.17-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #go-nuts 16:43 -!- Daminvar [n=Daminvar@cpe-67-241-129-149.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:44 < jhh> is there some documentation about how to use gotest without the usual makefiles? 16:44 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@c-98-215-178-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:44 -!- woremacx [n=woremacx@unaffiliated/woremacx] has left #go-nuts ["Leaving..."] 16:45 < jhh> it seems to run "make testpackage" for some reason, but why do i specify .go files? 16:56 -!- Refefer [n=Refefer@c-98-218-140-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:57 -!- Rob_Russell [n=chatzill@75-119-229-89.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:57 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:00 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@c-76-31-231-95.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:04 < usa> jhh, can you explain a little more about what you mean by "the usual makefiles"? gotest is a shell script that checks to see if there is a Makefile (or makefile) in the current directory and aborts if there is none 17:06 < usa> It assembles a list of files that you specify, or if none it uses *_test.go 17:06 < jhh> i'm not including %GOROOT/src/Make.pkg, to keep things local. i think i figured out what targets i need to be able to run gotest 17:07 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:08 < jhh> "gotest ." seems to work. it seems to run "make testpackage", then "make importpath" to find the package built 17:08 < usa> I don't find gotest very hard to read. It is written with portability in mind so some of the constructs look a tille weird. 17:11 < usa> ^tille^little^ It runs 'gomake testpackage-clean' then 'gomake testpackage GOTESTFILES="list of files, which are the *_test.go"', or in your case 'gomake testpackage GOTESTFILES="."' 17:15 < jhh> ah okay 17:15 < usa> It then runs 'gomake -s importpath' and that should just ouput the name of a file in _test, that ends in ".a" (you don't specify the ".a"), and it then runs "6nm" on that to get the functions. 17:15 < jhh> but gotest would look for *_test.go to pass them to 'gomake testpackge' in the environment 17:15 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has joined #go-nuts 17:16 < jhh> thanks, usa 17:17 < usa> Probably worth doing something like cd $GOROOT/src/pkg/os; bash -x $(type -p gotest) 17:18 < usa> to see what it is actually doing. You can also run "gomake -n testpackage-clean; gomake -n testpackage; gomake -n importpath" 17:19 -!- woremacx [n=woremacx@unaffiliated/woremacx] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- Metaphorically [n=chatzill@75-119-229-89.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:22 -!- Metaphorically [n=chatzill@75-119-229-89.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22 < jhh> yay it works1 17:28 -!- skelterjohn [n=jasmuth@lawn-net168-in.rutgers.edu] has joined #go-nuts 17:28 -!- tomestla [n=tom@87.100.115.249] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:32 -!- keeto [n=keeto@120.28.87.10] has joined #go-nuts 17:34 < skelterjohn> jhh: I was unable to download your lex from the wave, and i'm curious to see how you did it 17:34 -!- p0g0 [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34 < skelterjohn> maybe it's something useful enough to stick in the goyacc folder, instead of that crufty Lex() that's already there? 17:35 < jhh> i'll upload and link to it 17:35 -!- decriptor [n=decripto@53.250.sfcn.org] has joined #go-nuts 17:35 < jhh> the one i just wrote is not in the wave 17:36 < skelterjohn> i had some thoughts on a better lex, but not an abundance of free time and I wanted to see how you did it first, anyway :) 17:36 < skelterjohn> no point in doing it right twice when you can do it right once 17:37 -!- Rob_Russell [n=chatzill@75-119-229-89.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:38 < jhh> the one in the wave (aka the old one) has a scanner similar to the units.y 17:38 < skelterjohn> yeah let's not do that 17:39 -!- p4p4 [n=P4p4@24.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:40 -!- p0g0 [n=pogo@unaffiliated/p0g0] has joined #go-nuts 17:41 < jhh> http://code.google.com/p/gomake/source/browse/src/gb/parser/varparser/varparser.y 17:41 -!- woremacx [n=woremacx@unaffiliated/woremacx] has left #go-nuts ["Leaving..."] 17:42 -!- binaryjohn [n=binaryjo@cpe-24-30-132-50.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 17:42 < jhh> that's a simple parser, but it already works (see the tests) 17:44 -!- sinuhe [n=user@kaptah.deevans.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:44 < skelterjohn> i wonder, are compiled REs too slow to use inside Lex()? 17:45 < skelterjohn> i once made a tokenizer, where speed was not a consideration, that had a list of REs that it would try to match to the stream 17:45 < skelterjohn> they were ordered, and as soon as one got a hit, it at that input and produced a token 17:45 < dho> skelterjohn: various versions of lex use POSIX regexps to match tokens, so no. 17:45 < dho> I don't think it's too slow. 17:46 < jhh> a real lexer should compile all regexps into one automaton 17:46 < skelterjohn> yeah that's true 17:46 < jhh> that's what's done manually in the Lex() functions 17:46 < skelterjohn> i see 17:47 < skelterjohn> last time i compiled an RE by hand was in a undergrad programming languages class 17:47 -!- Refefer [n=Refefer@c-98-218-140-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:47 < jhh> i don't know if it's worth coming up with one... there should be one in the gnu utils 17:47 < jhh> how is it called? 17:47 < dho> flex? 17:47 < skelterjohn> how is what called? 17:47 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:48 < skelterjohn> oh 17:48 < jhh> flex 17:48 < jhh> true 17:48 < jhh> why is there no port? to much work? 17:49 < skelterjohn> one thing at a time, i suppose 17:49 -!- Demp_ [n=Demp@bzq-79-176-26-96.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:49 < dho> question. 17:49 < jhh> i mean most of the time we have no problems with that theres no lexer 17:50 -!- djh4u [n=duchbag@cpe-24-95-54-134.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:50 < jhh> because we usually don't need a lookahead to decide for a token type 17:50 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-109-66-1-109.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:50 < jhh> we don't need backtracking 17:50 < dho> if anybody has used unsafe -- if I pass in an array (or slice) to a function, can I uintptr(unsafe.Pointer(slice)) that? 17:51 < dho> similar to in C, if a function is int foo(int *bar), I can do int bar[5] = {0,1,2,3,4}; foo(bar) 17:51 < jhh> maybe programming a lexer is fun. an LALR automaton certainly is not 17:52 < WalterMundt> dho: probably, but I'd think uintptr(unsafe.Pointer(&slice[0])) might be better 17:53 < dho> ok. 17:53 * dho is wrapping FreeBSD's ptrace(2) 17:53 < WalterMundt> (this not being C, I believe &foo[0] is not equivalent to foo) 17:54 < skelterjohn> arrays and pointers being two different types 17:54 -!- Guest87385 [n=eharmon@74.204.161.105] has quit ["ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"] 17:55 < dho> unsafe seems to imply that the type doesn't matter 17:55 < dho> I just wonder what the practical difference is between foo and &foo[0] is in go 17:55 < WalterMundt> type doesn't matter 17:55 < WalterMundt> well try both and print the addresses 17:55 < skelterjohn> are arrays and pointers the same thing underneath? do only slices know their bounds? 17:55 < WalterMundt> well, the former might not compile 17:56 < WalterMundt> skelterjohn: arrays know their bounds at compile time 17:56 < skelterjohn> so then an array is different from a pointer, safe or not 17:56 -!- keeto [n=keeto@120.28.87.10] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:56 -!- eharmon [n=eharmon@74.204.161.105] has joined #go-nuts 17:56 < skelterjohn> (questions, not statements) 17:56 < WalterMundt> yeah 17:57 < WalterMundt> it might look the same in memory, except the Go runtime's type tag will point at info on the array such as its bounds 17:57 < WalterMundt> I don't know how the runtime knows what types things are precisely, but it obviously does 17:59 -!- nanoo [n=nano@95-89-198-45-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:59 -!- Xera^ [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 17:59 < WalterMundt> dho: unsafe.Pointer can IIRC only convert from other pointer types 17:59 < WalterMundt> a slice is not a pointer, though you could also do unsafe.Pointer(&foo) 18:00 < WalterMundt> that would probably get you the memory location of the slice metadata (pointer/len/cap) though 18:00 < dho> hm, ok 18:00 < dho> that's a bit failtastic 18:00 < dho> how the hell am i supposed to pass an array of ints into the kernel 18:01 < WalterMundt> like I said, uintptr(unsafe.Pointer(&(intslice[0]))) 18:01 < WalterMundt> get the address of the first int in the slice and hand it over 18:01 < skelterjohn> that's a mouthful 18:02 < WalterMundt> I've done the same thing with byte arrays for string manip functions that want a read/write character buffer 18:03 < WalterMundt> if the function actually takes an int* you can dispense with the unsafe conversions 18:03 < WalterMundt> (I think) 18:04 < jhh> skelterjohn: let me know what you think about what's happening there in the parser, when you looked at it 18:05 < dho> aha 18:05 < dho> yea, syscall_linux does it for its ptrace implementation 18:05 < dho> e.g 18:05 < dho> ptrace(peekReq, pid, addr-addr%sizeofPtr, uintptr(unsafe.Pointer(&buf[0]))) 18:06 < dho> where buf is [sizeofPtr]byte 18:06 < skelterjohn> jhh: it looks appropriate for what you want... but if everyone has to write the FSM by hand there will be a riot :) 18:07 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08 < waht2> is go the ultimate 18:08 < skelterjohn> i looked at what flex outputs...i don't relish the task of porting that. 18:08 < skelterjohn> waht2: yes, go is the ultimate. 18:09 < waht2> awesome 18:11 < jhh> skelterjohn: FSM? I thought you do FLM? 18:11 < skelterjohn> what's a FLM 18:11 < jhh> FSM doesn't make sense, does it? 18:11 < jhh> First longest match 18:11 < jhh> I thought 18:11 < skelterjohn> finite state machine? regexps are compiled to finite state machines 18:11 < jhh> ahahaha 18:11 < skelterjohn> i didn't mean first shortest match... hah 18:11 < jhh> okay :) 18:12 < waht2> do you think eventually compiles will optimize for mutlicores instead of the programmer having to do it by hand 18:12 < skelterjohn> waht2: there are experimental compilers that do this sort of thing now 18:12 < waht2> i mean couldn't some advanced compiler look at the code and find the best places 18:12 < waht2> interested 18:12 < skelterjohn> i think compilers for, eg, cray machines have all sorts of cool optimizations 18:12 < waht2> interesting i mean 18:12 < skelterjohn> i think that's the wrong approach, though 18:13 < skelterjohn> i think a language should make it easy for the programmer to spread computation when he/she wants to 18:13 < dho> cray machines are just big heaps of amd64 clusters with fast proprietary interconnects now 18:13 < skelterjohn> dho: and specialized compilers that look for opportunities to vectorize and parallelize code 18:13 < waht2> yeah but people said that about memory allocation too but later decided letting programmers fidle pointers and manage their own memory cause too much insecurity and error 18:13 < waht2> so couldn't threads end up like that 18:14 < skelterjohn> waht2: eventually, but letting the humans do it is a good way to figure out the best ways to do things 18:14 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #go-nuts 18:14 < dho> that's why C still exists. 18:14 < skelterjohn> eventually we'll just tell the robot what we want 18:14 < skelterjohn> and it will figur eit out 18:14 < dho> I hope not 18:14 < WalterMundt> some of us might 18:14 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:14 < skelterjohn> in the mean time we have programming languages that allow us to express our desires 18:14 < WalterMundt> the rest will still be writing C or something like Go 18:16 < dho> the list is quiet with all of qtvali's posts (and anybody replying to them) going to the trash 18:16 < WalterMundt> Maybe someone will come up with something more natural-language like for programming. I'm thinking Lojban-as-programming-language, or some set of conventions on English that remove ambiguities. Then again, we have COBOL as an example of what not to do in that vein. 18:17 < waht2> who is this qtivali guy 18:17 < waht2> why is he so famous 18:17 < WalterMundt> try infamous 18:17 < skelterjohn> he just posts reams of garbage to the mailing list 18:17 < waht2> thats why i dont sign up for mailing lists 18:17 < skelterjohn> the signal to noise ratio is really really low 18:17 < waht2> i'll look for it in an archive if i need something 18:17 < skelterjohn> it's a google-group 18:17 < skelterjohn> i don't have it come to my inbox 18:17 < skelterjohn> i just go to the webpage 18:17 < WalterMundt> I wonder how old he is and what he does for a living sometimes. Other times I think I don't want to know. 18:18 < skelterjohn> http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts 18:18 < dho> WalterMundt: whatever he does, apparently he's been doing it for 16 years 18:18 < jhh> WalterMundt: muahahaha 18:19 < jhh> I'm really surprised how many people put so much effort into go, that they can hardly have any spear time. 18:19 < skelterjohn> grad students 18:19 < skelterjohn> i spent about two weeks doing gomatrix and not much else, to the detriment of my research 18:19 < dho> <_< 18:20 < skelterjohn> and dho, of course. grad students and dho. 18:20 < waht2> any time a new and uneeded scripting lang or os kernel is born it;s usually a grad student with no useful thesis ideas 18:20 < dho> i am the exception to all 18:21 < WalterMundt> I steal time from my day job to chat about it and tinker, and then go home and write code sometimes. Of course, no releases because I do occasionally have other things to do in my time off. 18:22 < dho> I'd love to get a job working on / with go 18:23 < dho> to bad nobody has (or likely will have any time soon) any vested interest in go, let alone freebsd/go 18:23 < skelterjohn> if it catches on big one day, our resumes will look *stellar* 18:23 < WalterMundt> Technically I'm supposed to be sysadmining nowadays, but I still need to write some code now and again 18:25 < dho> skelterjohn: I think that's not likely to happen for some years yet 18:25 < jhh> I somehow suspected dho was paid by some company (which would be running FreeBSD of course) to fuel go to make it usable in the company. But I woke up. 18:25 < dho> i wish 18:25 < dho> i don't really care about operating systems anymore (from a usage standpoint) 18:25 < dho> but I used to be a really big FreeBSD zealot 18:26 < dho> which still means that I usually won't run anything else 18:26 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26 -!- path[l] [n=path@122.182.0.38] has quit [] 18:26 < jhh> WalterMundt: are you as german as your name sounds? 18:26 < dho> And I like go, so, not having anything else to run it on, I needed to port it first :\ 18:26 < jhh> hehe 18:27 < dho> i still need to write that porting document 18:27 -!- oal [n=olav@5.79-160-122.customer.lyse.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:27 < WalterMundt> jhh: not a bit. About half of my ancestry comes from there, but personally I'm pretty thoroughly Americanized 18:28 < jhh> shift/reduce conflicts are kind of hard to defeat 18:29 < jhh> WalterMundt: at least I wasn't totally wrong :) 18:30 < WalterMundt> I'd make a terrible German though. I don't like beer or sauerkraut :p 18:30 < dho> ! 18:30 * dho larts WalterMundt 18:31 < skelterjohn> beer, sauerkraut...wonderful things 18:31 < skelterjohn> <-is as german as WalterMundt, and in the same way 18:32 < jhh> but your name does not reveal you 18:33 < dho> I lived in Holland for a few years 18:33 < dho> and I love beer and sauerkraut 18:33 < WalterMundt> dho: don't worry, you can have my beer and sauerkraut ;) 18:33 < dho> \m/ 18:33 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:33 < jhh> if you like Dutch beer, you should taste German 18:34 * skelterjohn responds to a Qtvali post 18:34 < jhh> ; 18:34 < jhh> ;) 18:34 < skelterjohn> jhh: my name reveals me if you are a gemran 18:34 < skelterjohn> asmuth is a not too uncommon surname in germany 18:34 < WalterMundt> The latter is just a specific case of a general antipathy to anything containing vinegar 18:34 < dho> Ugh, I can't tell if this distortion is the song, the headphones or the amp 18:35 < WalterMundt> oh, no 18:35 < WalterMundt> that's cole slaw 18:35 < jhh> WalterMundt: so you would make a bad Britain, too :) 18:35 < WalterMundt> oh, yeah, though I really fine steak and potatoes to be perfectly fine 18:35 < WalterMundt> er, find 18:35 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit ["No Ping reply in 180 seconds."] 18:36 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@c-98-215-178-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 -!- difekta [n=clays@75.101.111.19] has joined #go-nuts 18:37 < jhh> skelterjohn: I never heard it before. Not consciously at least. But I suspected it because it sounds weird if I try to pronounce it English. 18:37 < skelterjohn> yeah... 18:37 < skelterjohn> i went through gradeschool with people having that issue 18:38 < skelterjohn> "azmith" is how my family says it. germans say it "assmoot" 18:38 < WalterMundt> My family is too americanized to pronounce my name the German way anyway 18:39 < dho> ah well 18:39 < dho> most people south of mason dixon pronounce my name Dev-On 18:40 < skelterjohn> not dev-awn? 18:40 < dho> same thing. 18:40 < dho> most people north (and west) say Dev(schwa)n 18:40 < dho> the latter is correct 18:40 < dho> well, short o is most correct anyway 18:40 < skelterjohn> devschawn... would never have thought that 18:40 < dho> whatever 18:41 < dho> anyway 18:41 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41 < dho> like the o in won 18:41 < skelterjohn> (am jk) 18:41 < skelterjohn> devschwan is a cool name though 18:41 < dho> So in 6th grade, I won my middle school's spelling bee (a sad testament to that middle school) 18:42 < skelterjohn> i was the comma king in 5th grade. 18:42 < jhh> Jan is uncommon for English people too I guess. All people in the UK called me Jan like in "Fan", but Germans say Jan like in 18:42 < dho> this was in eastern NC 18:42 < jhh> "run" 18:42 < dho> I got an award for that at the end of the year 18:42 < dho> They call me up... `DevAwn O'Dell' 18:43 < dho> I walk up and mention the proper pronounciation to the lady calling names 18:43 < skelterjohn> and this i the point at which you turned bitter 18:43 < dho> she looks at me and says, ``oh, i'm sorry, i didn't know you were white'' 18:43 < jhh> uh 18:44 -!- tbellefy [n=tbellefy@bouncer.adicio.com] has left #go-nuts [] 18:44 < skelterjohn> that's sort of bizarre 18:44 -!- Guest31404 [n=sroracle@c-98-215-178-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:44 < dho> quite 18:44 < skelterjohn> oh here comes zz 18:44 < dho> it was a bizarre small town 18:44 < dho> Farmville, NC 18:44 < dho> old tobacco town 18:45 < skelterjohn> wow, had a facebook app named after it and everything 18:45 < dho> where the thought of `across the tracks' still applies 18:45 < skelterjohn> why does qtvali have an alias 'tambet' 18:46 < skelterjohn> it's just weird 18:46 < dho> then when i was in 8th grade, i was living in a similarly bizarre town in western nc, called Marshall 18:46 < dho> I had blue hair 18:46 < skelterjohn> does he intend to make people think they're different, and then forget to disguise it? 18:46 < dho> no, it's his real name 18:46 < dho> So I'm getting on the bus one day, and the bus driver grabs my hair, pulls out a rather large pocketknife and says, `i should cut this off for you, boy' 18:47 < dho> the south is weird. 18:47 < dho> I miss california 18:47 < dho> and holland 18:47 -!- difekta [n=clays@75.101.111.19] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:47 < jhh> I actually live near holland 18:47 < skelterjohn> and...then you had him arrested? 18:48 < dho> skelterjohn: nah, they didn't even fire him 18:48 < skelterjohn> people around the country dump on NJ a lot, but at least i never had to deal with any of that garbage growing up 18:48 < dho> they still paddle kids at schools there 18:48 < dho> i got paddled twice 18:48 < jhh> dho: you might know Aachen, it's as close as a German city could be. But people around here merely like it for drugs. 18:49 < skelterjohn> i worked on a project called "aachen", once 18:49 < dho> Isn't there like a small zoo around there? 18:49 < skelterjohn> back in the early days of java 18:49 < jhh> yeah 18:49 < dho> and a castle? 18:49 < dho> yeah 18:49 < dho> i went there a few times 18:49 < dho> my girlfriend's mom had a birthday party at the house at the lake at that zoo place 18:49 < dho> it was rather nice 18:50 < dho> er, ex-girlfriend 18:50 < jhh> hehe 18:50 < jhh> i think the castles are rather old city gates 18:50 < dho> she ended up modeling and then being a social worker dealing with foreigners or something 18:51 < dho> i don't talk to her much anymore, mostly because my dutch has gotten rather poor, and i don't feel like writing to her in english 18:51 < jhh> how long have you been there? 18:51 < jhh> speaking dutch in two years? that's not bad 18:52 < dho> i lived there from dec. 2001 to may 2005 18:52 < dho> i found it proper 18:52 < dho> maar het is ook niet zo moeilijk :) 18:52 < skelterjohn> there are only two types of people i can't stand. those who disparage other cultures, and the dutch. 18:53 -!- keet [n=o@unaffiliated/keet] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53 < dho> heh. 18:53 < dho> i love that quote 18:53 < dho> brb rauchen 18:53 < dho> :) 18:53 < skelterjohn> and belgium is a dirty word 18:53 < dho> belgium is the NJ of western europe :P 18:53 < skelterjohn> it must be a wonderful place 18:53 < skelterjohn> just like NJ 18:55 -!- gasreaa [n=atwong@nat/slide/x-ejkzmeasldborfqn] has joined #go-nuts 18:55 -!- gasreaa [n=atwong@nat/slide/x-ejkzmeasldborfqn] has left #go-nuts [] 19:04 -!- p4p4 [n=P4p4@24.106.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04 < dho> func PtraceGetLwpList(pid int, lwpids []Lwpid_t) (ret int, errno int) ( 19:04 < dho> where the fuck is the syntax error? 19:05 < WalterMundt> last character 19:05 < dho> oh 19:05 < skelterjohn> :) 19:05 < dho> wow 19:05 * dho thinks his font needs some help 19:06 < mauke> ({[]}) I|li mrn QO0Øoø 19:07 * michael| pats Proggy Clean on the back for a job well done 19:07 < mauke> ⊘∅ø 19:07 < skelterjohn> ΜΜ 19:07 < skelterjohn> ονε οφ τηεσε ισ α γρεεκ λεττερ 19:07 < skelterjohn> :) 19:08 < dho> ¯\(°_o)/¯ 19:08 < mauke> all of them are 19:08 < skelterjohn> i meant on the previous line 19:08 < mauke> oh 19:08 * dho completely misunderstands 19:08 < mauke> AАΑ 19:09 < skelterjohn> capital em vs capital mu 19:09 < skelterjohn> m/μ M/Μ 19:09 < mauke> three different A's :-) 19:09 < michael|> Oh, can't see the capital M/mu difference. 19:09 < skelterjohn> exactly 19:10 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:10 < skelterjohn> this is why using greek letters in code can sometimes be a bad idea 19:10 < skelterjohn> makes the syntax errors really hard to catch 19:10 < jA_cOp> hm, now that the channel is active, is there a way to call Go code from C? I know the short answer is "no", but I heard there were some workarounds or whatnot 19:11 -!- samferry [i=sam@unaffiliated/samferry] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:12 < waht2> someone should make a language in chinese characters just to torture all the westerners who have been advantaged by every language using roman characters 19:12 < skelterjohn> chinese people are welcome to make a chinese character using language 19:12 < skelterjohn> but it might not catch on 19:12 < jA_cOp> you can use chinese characters in any language using UTF-8 source code, though 19:12 < jA_cOp> but you mean like keywords and stuff? 19:13 < dho> jA_cOp: the guy who did the lua port figured out a way to do it somehow with an eventer or something 19:13 < jA_cOp> eventer? 19:13 < jA_cOp> I was working on a Lua interface too, but I stopped at the interop problem 19:14 < mauke> well, there's fjölnir 19:14 < waht2> so who's going to write "beginning go" 19:14 -!- Soak [n=root@mst45-1-82-231-239-194.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:15 < waht2> what if i wrote a synthesizer in go 19:15 < waht2> would it have advantages over the ones written in c++ 19:15 < skelterjohn> what is a synthesizer? 19:16 < waht2> it makes sounds for music 19:16 < skelterjohn> i see 19:16 < jhh> are there rune testing functions in the go lib? Something like isAlpha(int)? When I see utf8 here I feel my 'a-z' implementation is bad. 19:16 < skelterjohn> then the language choice is sort of irrelevant. 19:16 < waht2> i guess 19:16 < skelterjohn> whenever waht2 asks a question, i am *almost* convinced he is messing with everyone 19:16 < skelterjohn> but not quite. so, if you are, waht2, kudos on a well done troll 19:17 < dho> jA_cOp: http://code.google.com/p/golua/source/browse/trunk/golua.c 19:17 < jA_cOp> thanks 19:18 < dho> http://code.google.com/p/golua/source/browse/trunk/lua.go 19:18 < dho> it's very hacky 19:18 < WalterMundt> this I have to see 19:21 < dho> hm 19:22 < dho> suggestions of how to put an int into a byte[]? 19:22 < WalterMundt> encoding/binary 19:22 < Guest91311> trying to figure out how cgo works: do I need to call gcc at all? or is it an alternative to 6c 19:22 < WalterMundt> Guest91311: cgo will call gcc for you as needed 19:23 < dho> well, no, the make infrastructure calls gcc for you 19:23 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 19:23 < WalterMundt> oh, right 19:23 < WalterMundt> sorry 19:23 < dho> cgo only calls gcc to figure out some type information 19:24 < Guest91311> I'm asking because the example in misc/cgo/gmp does not call gcc at all, and therefore does not use CGO_LDFLAGS=-lgmp 19:25 < dho> Guest91311: Make.pkg calls gcc. 19:25 < dho> and does use CGO_LDFLAGS 19:26 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:27 < Guest91311> I understand, but I cannot see it being called in this example running make 19:27 < dho> gcc is only called for the install: target. 19:28 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28 < dho> as the only target that requires it is part of INSTALLFILES 19:28 < Guest91311> thanks 19:29 < dho> no problem 19:29 < dho> Guest91311: in general, to actually use cgo, you just need a Makefile that looks like this: 19:29 < dho> TARG=pkgname 19:29 < dho> GOFILES=1.go 2.go etc.go 19:29 < dho> CGO_LDFLAGS=-lwhatever 19:30 < dho> include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.$(GOARCH) 19:30 < dho> include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.pkg 19:30 -!- path[l] [i=UPP@120.138.102.34] has joined #go-nuts 19:30 < skelterjohn> this will all be fixed with gb 19:30 < dho> er, s/GOFILES/CGOFILES/ 19:36 -!- Soak [n=root@mst45-1-82-231-239-194.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 19:40 -!- nathanielk [n=quassel@frigga.summersault.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:41 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43 < dho> well this is kind of a bummer 19:44 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46 -!- p4p4 [n=P4p4@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:48 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has joined #go-nuts 19:53 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:00 < skelterjohn> dho: what is? 20:00 < dho> so, in Linux, when you use ptrace to read/write from text or data 20:01 < dho> it just reads to/writes from a buffer 20:01 < dho> in freebsd, however, if you want to do that, you need to start passing structs 20:01 < dho> sigh. 20:01 < dho> or read N times where N = size you want to read / sizeof int 20:01 < skelterjohn> sounds irritating but manageable 20:02 < skelterjohn> not that i know what ptrace is 20:02 < dho> process tracing framework 20:02 < dho> how gdb debugs 20:04 -!- youngbull [n=youngbul@ti0025a380-dhcp1720.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 20:15 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-64-142.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 20:20 < jhh> The most convincing (yet probably least important) argument for go for me was that it feels clean. We are weird people. 20:21 < skelterjohn> it has a certain aesthetic 20:21 < skelterjohn> hence the turmoil about gofmt, heh. 20:22 < jhh> i don't care about epsilonities 20:22 < jhh> the overall flare seems clean to me 20:22 < jhh> the overall\{Makefiles} 20:23 < skelterjohn> :) 20:23 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24 < jhh> flair? i think i mean flair 20:25 < skelterjohn> don't worry - most americans get that one wrong 20:26 < WalterMundt> I think so too 20:26 < jhh> I'm not American! 20:26 < WalterMundt> new, shinier programming language! Now powered by solar flares and wishful thinking! 20:27 < jhh> precisely 20:27 -!- napsy [n=luka@93-103-201-54.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:28 < skelterjohn> jhh: exactly 20:30 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:30 < skelterjohn> i think qtvali is a microsoft henchmen paid to bog down the mailing list with almost intelligent tripe 20:31 < skelterjohn> henchman 20:31 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32 < dho> it's much nicer to just have posts from:qtvali@gmail.com or body:contains(Qtvali) or body:contains(Tambet) go to trash 20:33 < dho> I had to do it yesterday. someone told him to write some code, he said no. I said yes. He told *me* to write code. 20:33 -!- Sungem [i=ss@118-160-160-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:33 -!- osmosis [n=steven@m5d0e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:33 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:33 < WalterMundt> yeah, I suppose that's as good a time as any to make the call 20:35 -!- teedex [n=teedex@adsl-75-36-137-249.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:38 -!- Sungem_ [i=ss@220-136-226-157.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:39 -!- Netsplit kornbluth.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: osmosis, stevenyvr, rrr, nickjohn1on, nf, wayneeseguin, dho, Demp, mycroftiv, me__, (+28 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 20:42 -!- Venom_X [n=pjacobs@c-76-31-231-95.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:42 -!- tomaw_ [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #go-nuts 20:42 -!- Associat0r [n=Associat@h163153.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [] 20:43 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has left #go-nuts [] 20:43 -!- gnuvince [n=vince@72.0.201.143] has joined #go-nuts 20:48 -!- djh4u [n=duchbag@cpe-24-95-54-134.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48 -!- mycroftiv [n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- osmosis [n=steven@m5d0e36d0.tmodns.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- p4p4 [n=P4p4@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- alexsuraci [n=alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- Xera^ [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- Demp [n=Demp@bzq-109-66-1-109.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- Henry_georgeist [n=g@216-15-115-10.c3-0.bkl-ubr2.sbo-bkl.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- xid [n=xid@narc.oti.cz] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- roto [n=roto@64.79.202.154] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- highb_ [n=highb@shell.onid.oregonstate.edu] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- me__ [n=me@c-68-55-179-48.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- michael| [n=maikeru@unaffiliated/maikeru/x-7708887] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- rthc [n=rthc@rrcs-67-52-50-170.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- philips [n=brandon@opensuse/member/philips] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- Sungem [i=ss@118-160-160-221.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- youngbull [n=youngbul@ti0025a380-dhcp1720.bb.online.no] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- stevenyvr [n=schan@76-10-184-108.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- ineol [n=hal@mar75-9-88-171-191-168.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- rndbot [n=bot@wikipedia/Gracenotes] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- klooj [n=kloojit@173-15-136-74-BusName-Philadelphia.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- AmirMohammad [n=amir@unaffiliated/gluegadget] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- wayneeseguin [n=wayneese@rrcs-72-45-208-165.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- plexdev [n=plexdev@arthur.espians.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- nf [n=nf@124-168-153-30.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- tokuhiro_ [n=tokuhiro@s230.GtokyoFL21.vectant.ne.jp] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- evilhackerdude [n=stephan@78.46.203.42] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- dho [n=dho@onager.omniti.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- madmoose [n=madmoose@chef.nerp.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- nickjohn1on [n=arachnid@coilette.notdot.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- vhost- [n=kyle@kyleterry.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- Altercation [n=Altercat@pdpc/supporter/active/altercation] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 -!- skerner [n=skerner@74.202.225.33] has joined #go-nuts 20:53 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:53 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:53 -!- stalled_ [n=411@95.27.87.211] has joined #go-nuts 20:57 -!- mmw [n=mmw@2002:5bb6:2aa9:0:223:6cff:fe84:1914] has joined #go-nuts 20:58 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:58 -!- stalled [n=411@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 20:58 -!- Xera` [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 20:59 -!- p4p4 [n=P4p4@24.121.113.82.net.de.o2.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [SeaMonkey 2.0a3/20090223135443]"] 21:01 < jhh> skelterjohn: do you really think goflex is wanted? 21:01 < jhh> I'm thinking about trying it. 21:01 < skelterjohn> some way to easily create a lexer is needed 21:02 < skelterjohn> maybe goflex is the right answer 21:02 < jhh> do I have to start a discussion on the mailing list or just code it? 21:03 < skelterjohn> asking me? heh 21:03 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06 < Guest91311> i'm trying to build with cgo out of $GOROOT in a separate tree. I pass appropriate -I and -L flags to 8g and 8l. Building works, however when I run the program, it looks for the .so in $GOROOT 21:06 < Guest91311> Is this hard coded? or where can I set it? 21:07 < skelterjohn> LD_LIBRARY_PATH is where things look for .so paths in general 21:10 < Guest91311> this does not change it. It still looks for the file in $GOROOT/pkg/linux... 21:10 < dho> Yes, because cgo outputs the full path to the .so it wants to generate, assuming it's going to end up there. 21:10 < dho> If you ran make install, it should have ended up there. 21:11 < skelterjohn> cgo seems kludgy 21:11 < Guest91311> I didn't use the makefile, as I want to keep everything out of GOROOT 21:12 < dho> You can copy Make.pkg locally and the Make.$GOARCH scripts locally as well. 21:12 -!- rrr [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12 < dho> Not using those is going to provide you with pain. cgo assumes that your package is installed to GOROOT 21:12 < dho> but 21:12 < dho> there is a CGOPKGPATH thing you can set in the makefile as well 21:13 < dho> well 21:13 < dho> not in the makefile 21:13 < dho> it's an env variable. 21:14 < dho> It will let you specify your own path to the package. 21:14 < dho> skelterjohn: it is _very_ fragile 21:14 < dho> that's why i've been working on bugfixes for it 21:14 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 21:14 < dho> skelterjohn: most libraries that are potentially useful for go programmers are already written in C 21:15 < dho> so having an FFI that works is a good thing 21:15 -!- Xera^ [n=brit@87-194-208-246.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15 < dho> Guest91311: You could for instance do CGOPKGPATH=. $(GOBIN)/cgo file.go 21:15 < Guest91311> the CGOPKGPATH seems to append to GOROOT when I change it. It this intended? 21:15 -!- gkmngrgn [n=gkmngrgn@unaffiliated/gkmngrgn] has joined #go-nuts 21:16 < dho> Guest91311: If you specify an absolute path, it will not do so 21:17 < dho> however, it's not really very flexible 21:17 -!- rrr_ [i=rrr@gateway/gpg-tor/key-0x9230E18F] has joined #go-nuts 21:17 < dho> Go doesn't use the system's runtime linker, so it has to know the correct path to the .so 21:18 < dho> (which is also why LD_LIBRARY_PATH doesn't work) 21:18 < Guest91311> It works now, with the absolute path. 21:19 < dho> cool 21:19 < dho> that's a relatively recent addition 21:19 < skelterjohn> does cgo link go code with gcc compiled c or 8c/6c generated c? 21:19 < dho> skelterjohn: it's weird 21:19 < dho> skelterjohn: it links gc code with kenc code 21:19 < skelterjohn> gc = gcc or go compiler 21:20 < dho> go compiler. 21:20 < dho> always 21:20 < skelterjohn> coulda been a typo :) 21:20 < dho> i never make tpoys :) 21:20 < dho> ;) 21:20 < skelterjohn> kenc is what 21:20 < dho> but the kenc code dynlds a gcc-compiled .so (with #pragma dynld gosym csym "/path/to/shlib.so" 21:20 < dho> ken's c compiler 21:21 < dho> i guess 8c/6c/etc are kenc 21:21 < dho> maybe they're xoc 21:21 < skelterjohn> ok 21:21 < skelterjohn> so the answer was "cgo links gc to 8c/6c" 21:21 < skelterjohn> ? 21:21 < skelterjohn> and then 8c/6c can link to gcc through other means 21:22 < dho> cgo doesn't link anything 21:22 < skelterjohn> connect 21:22 < skelterjohn> link was the wrong word 21:22 < dho> ok. 21:22 < skelterjohn> i meant it in the general sense rather than the compiler sense 21:22 < dho> right 21:23 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 21:23 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24 < dho> skelterjohn: if you run cgo on a proper file you'll see how it dynlds too 21:25 < dho> the compiler knows about the dynamic loader 21:25 < dho> or about dynamic objects anyway 21:25 < dho> #pragma dynld main·_C_bar bar "/home/devon/golang/pkg/linux_amd64/main.so" 21:25 < dho> so you get something like that 21:25 < dho> like i said, syntax is go-sym, c-sym, path to .so with symbol 21:26 -!- General1337 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:27 < dho> that whatever.so is generated by gcc (which comes from an autogenerated file from cgo) 21:27 -!- Innominate [n=sirrobin@cpe-069-134-170-056.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27 -!- slashus2 [n=slashus2@74-137-26-8.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [] 21:29 -!- Weems [i=Weems@unaffiliated/weems] has joined #go-nuts 21:30 * skelterjohn goes back to doing math 21:30 -!- raichoo [n=raichoo@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has quit ["http://raichoo.blogspot.com"] 21:30 -!- General13372 [n=support@71-84-247-187.dhcp.gldl.ca.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:31 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:31 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34 -!- carllerche [n=carllerc@99-8-186-86.lightspeed.snfcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 21:36 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:38 -!- vizzord [n=exn@195.49.206.202] has joined #go-nuts 21:38 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has left #go-nuts [] 21:39 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:41 -!- Amaranth__ [n=travis@97-114-240-143.sxcy.qwest.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:41 -!- ikke [n=ikke@unaffiliated/ikkebr] has joined #go-nuts 21:42 < sheb> is there a way to do a str.replace like in python ? 21:42 -!- [[sroracle]] [n=sroracle@unaffiliated/sroracle] has quit ["Happy New Years, *"] 21:42 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:42 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:43 < dho> Not really. It's a very inefficient operation because strings are immutable. 21:43 -!- Weems [i=Weems@unaffiliated/weems] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43 < skelterjohn> You can write something that will do it by using the methods defined in http://golang.org/pkg/strings/ 21:43 -!- mmw [n=mmw@2002:5bb6:2aa9:0:223:6cff:fe84:1914] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43 < dho> but what he said 21:43 -!- jA_cOp [n=yakobu@unaffiliated/ja-cop/x-9478493] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44 < skelterjohn> unless your strings are stored as linked lists of characters, strreplace is pretty inefficient in general 21:44 < skelterjohn> unless you replace with stuff of the exact same length 21:46 < dho> skelterjohn: it's easy enough to determine the maximum length of the final string before doing any replacing 21:46 < dho> probably best to operate on []byte in this case 21:46 < skelterjohn> the inefficiencies i was referring to were the copying of swathes of data 21:47 < skelterjohn> which doesn't go away if your string is mutable or not 21:47 < dho> no, it doesn't :) 21:47 < skelterjohn> if your string is a char linked list, then you don't have to copy much of anything 21:47 < skelterjohn> indexing can be a pain though 21:47 -!- preflex [n=preflex@95-88-118-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:48 -!- penchkes [n=theroffc@cpe-76-94-212-137.socal.res.rr.com] has left #go-nuts [] 21:48 -!- mmw [n=mmw@2002:5bb6:2aa9:0:223:6cff:fe84:1914] has joined #go-nuts 21:51 -!- tar_ [n=tom@cpe-24-210-143-83.woh.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:51 -!- mmw [n=mmw@2002:5bb6:2aa9:0:223:6cff:fe84:1914] has quit [Client Quit] 21:54 -!- preflex [n=preflex@95-88-118-220-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #go-nuts 21:55 -!- Refefer [n=Refefer@c-98-218-140-22.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 21:55 -!- dan [n=dan@207.18.56.9] has joined #go-nuts 21:56 -!- dan [n=dan@207.18.56.9] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 22:00 -!- iwikiwi [n=iwikiwi@202.3.77.160] has joined #go-nuts 22:05 < dho> happy new year, i'm out 22:05 < waht2> oh really 22:07 -!- Amaranth__ [n=travis@97-114-240-143.sxcy.qwest.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:09 < jhh> uses go it's own manually built scanner? 22:11 -!- fhs [n=fhs@pool-72-89-203-117.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:11 < skelterjohn> restate? 22:12 < skelterjohn> oh 22:12 < skelterjohn> does go use <etc> 22:15 < skelterjohn> a grep doesn't turn up any *.l files 22:15 < jhh> but instead a lex.c 22:15 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:16 < skelterjohn> yes 22:16 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 22:16 < skelterjohn> it looks handwritten 22:17 < skelterjohn> none of those weird number tables 22:18 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 22:20 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 22:22 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 22:23 -!- mertimor [n=mertimor@p4FE75C48.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:25 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-64-142.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [] 22:28 -!- mmw [n=mmw@2002:5bb6:2aa9:0:223:6cff:fe84:1914] has joined #go-nuts 22:31 < jhh> skelterjohn: do you think they did it for speed? 22:31 < skelterjohn> maybe it was created by something not flex 22:32 < skelterjohn> maybe there is a plan9 lexer that creates different looking files 22:33 -!- GeoBSD [n=geocalc@lns-bzn-53-82-65-18-29.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has left #go-nuts [] 22:37 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 22:38 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38 < jhh> skelterjohn: maybe they did it to have unicode support? I don't have enough knowledge about flex to tell if flex can deal with unicode 22:38 < skelterjohn> interesting theory 22:38 -!- Amaranth_ [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #go-nuts 22:38 < skelterjohn> i wonder if the go regexp library handles unicode well 22:43 < usa> Plan 9 compilers have hand written lexers. In general real programming languages are pretty easy to lex. 22:43 < skelterjohn> thanks, usa 22:44 < jhh> channel #plan9 votes for speed 22:47 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has left #go-nuts [] 22:47 < jhh> because lex.c doesn't look very easy to me 22:48 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 22:49 < usa> Hand written lexers tend to be faster. The "lcc" book talks about making the lexer as fast as possible, because in those days the lex pass was the slowest. Now of course we have gcc so the lexer is one of the speedier steps! 22:50 < usa> lex.c is easy. Ignore everything except the _yylex(void) function. 22:50 -!- Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:51 < usa> It then loops on the "l0" label eating whitespace, keeping track of line numbers. 22:51 < jhh> yeah, that's what i looked at. a couple of reg exps would be easier to understand. but i can understand a compiler wants to go for speed 22:52 < jhh> I'm not trying to understand the lexer, but try to estimate if a lexer generator is needed. 22:52 < usa> It then sees if it is alphabetic or not. If it is then it goes to the talpha label. If it is numeric it goes to the tnum label 22:54 < skelterjohn> was just reading http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html - does go's regexp package use DFAs? I didn't know people used anything other than DFAs for regexps but apparently the standard is to use something with exponential runtime 22:54 < usa> Not many real world projects use a lexer generator, usually quoting either a need for speed or that writing a lexer by hand is not too hard. 22:56 < usa> Most regexp packages use NFA with backtracking. That was why Russ wrote the paper to kick people into using somrthing better. 22:56 < jhh> NFAs have exponential size 22:56 -!- marianoguerra [n=marianog@12-60-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #go-nuts 22:56 < usa> DFA's have exponential size, NFA's typically do not. 22:56 < marianoguerra> which package should I use to check if a file exists and is readable? 22:56 < skelterjohn> right, it's the naive conversion from NFA to DFA that does that 22:57 < skelterjohn> os 22:57 < skelterjohn> marianoguerra: the os package 22:58 < marianoguerra> File.stat? 22:58 < jhh> but i learned in class usual langauges do not create DFA's with that size 22:58 < jhh> so runtime is less then exponential 22:59 < skelterjohn> usually 22:59 < skelterjohn> "usually" is a tricky thing to prove 22:59 < WalterMundt> I'm reading the paper 22:59 < jhh> i know, i know 22:59 < skelterjohn> marianoguerra: experiment 23:00 < skelterjohn> maybe just try to open as a read only file, and see if it gives an error 23:00 < WalterMundt> wondering whether Perl does regexes the way it does to support more obscure features like lookbehinds/lookaheads/in-regex-code-evaluation/etc. 23:00 < usa> There are bad cases for DFAs, there are bad cases for NFAs, you are more likely to hit a bad case for an NFA. 23:01 < skelterjohn> the bad cases for DFAs are hit when generating the lexer, while the bad cases for NFAs are hit while parsing the input 23:02 < dho> i lied 23:03 < dho> waiting for girlfriend to shower 23:03 < jhh> i don't remember exponential in what 23:03 < skelterjohn> DFA size is exp in the number of nodes in the NFA it came from 23:03 < dho> plan 9 doesn't use a lexer generator because writing a lexer by hand isn't hard, not because of speed 23:03 < usa> skelterjohn, not true, at least as long as you have a sensible definition for a comment. For a lexer for a real programming language you will have no problem with either a DFA nor an NFA. 23:04 < skelterjohn> usa: a DFA will always run in time linear with the length of the input, though generating it may take time exp with the length of the regexp 23:05 < skelterjohn> i don't remember the runtime for creating an NFA from the regexp, but its runtime with the input is exp, as discussed 23:05 < jhh> dho: but using a generator would be easier 23:05 < usa> Yes, and may take an exponential amount of storage. 23:05 < skelterjohn> that problem happens in the compile step 23:05 < dho> jhh: maybe 23:05 < skelterjohn> you notice once its compiled that it has exp space, and so that's when the problem happens :) 23:06 < dho> depends on the language i guess 23:06 < jhh> NFA parsing should be in O(N*F) if F is the number of states and N the length of the input 23:07 < usa> NFA is linear in the size of the input expression to build, but can be exponential to run. 23:07 < jhh> sure? 23:07 -!- tar_ [n=tom@cpe-24-210-143-83.woh.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:08 < skelterjohn> huh. perhaps the algorithm i have in my head is deficient 23:08 < usa> jhh, NFA building is O(F), running is potentially a lot more than O(N*F). 23:09 < skelterjohn> keep track, for each step, of the possible states that you could be in. eat one character, update the list of possible states based on that character and the previous states 23:09 < skelterjohn> that would take N*F 23:09 < skelterjohn> maybe N*F*F 23:09 < usa> Thats what a DFA does, not an NFA. 23:10 < skelterjohn> a DFA doesn't have a list of possible states 23:10 < skelterjohn> it has the one state that is possible 23:10 < skelterjohn> each state can be labeled as a number of states from its NFA origins, that's fine 23:11 < usa> What do you think your "list of possible states" is, apart from a state of a DFA? 23:11 < skelterjohn> the exponential part of the NFA->DFA conversion is enumerating all combinations of states from the NFA are 23:11 < skelterjohn> in my algorithm, you only need to think about one list of possible NFA states at a time 23:11 < skelterjohn> the DFA made from it has a state for each of those combinations 23:11 < jhh> oh my god 23:12 < skelterjohn> i might be being stupid...i haven't thought about this stuff in a while 23:12 < usa> Fine, so you are reinventing a lazy NFA->DFA conversion. 23:12 < skelterjohn> yes, and there is nothing exponential in it 23:14 -!- WalterMundt [n=waltermu@twiki/developer/EtherMage] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:15 < skelterjohn> http://www.springerlink.com/content/48777741v0486805/ this simulation of NFAs runs in O(N*F) 23:15 < skelterjohn> and that is labeled the "naive" way 23:16 < skelterjohn> a method using dynamic programming runs in O(N*M) where M is the length of the RE 23:16 < skelterjohn> and N is the length of the input 23:17 -!- gracchus [n=jesse@207-229-149-97.c3-0.stk-ubr1.chi-stk.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #go-nuts 23:17 < skelterjohn> ok that M isn't for the length of an RE, it's the length of an exact pattern 23:17 < skelterjohn> REs might be harder 23:17 < skelterjohn> but you can still evaluate an NFA quickly 23:19 -!- eulenspi1gel [n=eulenspi@p579CA9C2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:22 -!- Xeon [n=chatzill@202.158.165.178] has joined #go-nuts 23:23 -!- sheb [n=seb@AToulouse-152-1-64-142.w82-125.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 23:23 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:26 -!- mssm [n=mssmfs@ip-95-221-91-60.bb.netbynet.ru] has quit ["WeeChat 0.3.0"] 23:26 -!- raichoo [n=Adium@i577ACDF2.versanet.de] has joined #go-nuts 23:26 -!- MaTThewP [n=Rachu@cpe-24-95-54-134.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 23:27 -!- Xeon_ [n=chatzill@202.158.165.178] has quit [Operation timed out] 23:31 < waht2> is google going to patent anything in go 23:31 < skelterjohn> you ask bizarre questions 23:32 -!- marianoguerra [n=marianog@12-60-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 23:33 -!- r2p2 [n=billy@v32671.1blu.de] has joined #go-nuts 23:34 < dho> hypothesis: waht2 is qtvali's irc nick 23:34 < dho> though i don't think qtvali is clever enough to have dongs backwards as his username/ident 23:35 < skelterjohn> lol 23:36 < dho> ok, i'm really out of here, see you guys next year 23:36 < skelterjohn> later 23:36 -!- eulenspiegel [n=eulenspi@unaffiliated/eulenspiegel] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 23:38 -!- triplez [n=triplez@cm52.sigma225.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #go-nuts 23:43 -!- itrekkie [n=itrekkie@ip98-165-246-56.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:46 -!- mssm [n=mssm@ip-95-221-91-60.bb.netbynet.ru] has joined #go-nuts 23:49 -!- mmw [n=mmw@2002:5bb6:2aa9:0:223:6cff:fe84:1914] has quit [] --- Log closed Fri Jan 01 00:00:40 2010