--- Log opened Tue Oct 19 00:00:11 2010
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00:36 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g7rJR by [Yasuhiro Matsumoto] in
go/misc/goplay/ -- goplay: fix to run under windows.
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01:26 < nelt> Anyone know why net.pollster, net.pollServer and/or net.newFD
are all network specific and not exported?  They seem completely generic.  I'd
really like to use them for fifos, files, and devices as well as network sockets.
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01:48 < skelterjohn> nelt: I don't have an answer for you, but that seems
like a good question to pose to the mailing list.
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02:22 < raylu> so i have a function that returns a string and it returns in
both an if and else block, but i get
02:22 < raylu> auth.go:22: function ends without a return statement
02:23 < nsf> raylu: it's known "feature" of the gc compiler suite
02:23 < nsf> use this:
02:24 < nsf> func boolToString(b bool) { if b == true { return "true" };
return false }
02:24 < nsf> it's the same as in "if ..  else ..  " case, but compiler in
this case is happy
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02:25 < nsf> raylu: or simply add dummy return statement at the end of the
function
02:25 < nsf> it won't be called anyway
02:25 < raylu> yeah, i did the former; thanks
02:26 < nsf> oops
02:26 < nsf> my func example should be:
02:26 < nsf> func boolToString(b bool) { if b == true { return "true" };
return "false" }
02:26 < nsf> oops :D
02:26 < nsf> func boolToString(b bool) string { if b == true { return "true"
}; return "false" }
02:26 < nsf> here we go :)
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05:27 < Tv> i am extremely skilled at creating deadlocks :(
05:29 <@adg> Tv: congrats
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05:39 < fuzzybyte> I tried compiling go (after hg update release), but I get
this error http://dpaste.com/259997/
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05:46 < fuzzybyte> nvm.  works now.
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13:22 < finkler> do you use range or classic i iteration for for-loops?
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13:23 < soul9> range is made *for* for loops
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13:25 < finkler> yes, but it seems with simply arrays/slices there is little
gain, so I am just asking for habits :)
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13:26 < soul9> *very* useful for maps tho
13:27 < finkler> yes
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13:53 < wrtp> finkler: i always use range when i can because it's a) clearer
and b) faster too, as there's one less runtime bounds check
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15:08 < wrtp> is it legal for a Reader to return n > 0 and err != nil ?
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15:58 < grumpytoad> can some1 help a newb ? compiling "helloworld" as per
the docs just results in 'syntax error near "<string>"'
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16:03 < mpl> wrtp: hmm, why not?
16:04 < wrtp> mpl: 'cos it's kind of failure and kind of not...
16:05 < mpl> wrtp: don't you mean n == 0 and err != nil ?
16:06 < wrtp> no, because that's just fine.
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16:06 < mpl> uh, I'm lost.  isn't it supposed to return the number of bytes
read when all is fine?
16:06 < wrtp> but n > 0 and err != nil means that you've read some bytes,
but it's an error too.  i don't really know what that means
16:06 < mpl> oh, right.
16:07 < wrtp> so i assume that if n > 0, then err == nil.  but that may
be erroneous.
16:07 < mpl> yeah.
16:07 < Ina> Probably worth looking what kind of error it is, if it spews
one.
16:07 < mpl> well there's the other way around for func (*Buffer) Read
16:08 < wrtp> mpl: ?
16:09 < mpl> "If the buffer has no data to return, err is os.EOF even if
len(p) is zero; otherwise it is nil.  "
16:09 < mpl> that sounds like one of those special cases to me as well, just
not the same as yours.
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16:10 < wrtp> yeah, that's fine.  just means that n==0 => err != nil
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16:10 < wrtp> but...  does n>0 => err == nil.  that's the question.
16:10 < niemeyer> grumpytoad: Where's the code?
16:11 < mpl> wrtp: I wouldn't assume so.
16:11 < mpl> wrtp: after all, one is always supposed to check the error
_before_ using n, shouldn't he?
16:11 < grumpytoad> niemeyer: its in the install docs -
http://pastebin.org/315723
16:11 < niemeyer> grumpytoad: Looking
16:12 < grumpytoad> i must have some environment variable wrong
16:12 < mpl> wrtp: oh, I've just realized I have this exact same case in the
package I'm working on (lzw compression),
16:13 < mpl> wrtp: it can happen that the encoding/decoding fails before the
end and at this point I'm returning the number of bytes that have been effectively
read/written AND an error
16:13 < niemeyer> grumpytoad: This program is correct, and runs fine here
too
16:13 < grumpytoad> yes..  very puzzling
16:13 < grumpytoad> hello.go:5: syntax error near "<string>"
16:13 < wrtp> mpl: i think in that case i'd first return the number of bytes
that have been read.  and the next read would return the error,
16:13 < wrtp> s/,/./
16:14 < niemeyer> grumpytoad: There's no string in line 5..
16:14 < wrtp> after all, some bytes have been read without error.
16:15 < grumpytoad> i also seem to have to use ';' sometimes instead of
ommiting them
16:15 < wrtp> writing is a different matter.
16:15 < mpl> hmm I don't allow for "next read" so far, because it has to be
read/written in one go as it's a stream of bits which are non aligned on bytes.
16:15 < niemeyer> wrtp: This would mean having to keep internal state which
is already known rather than letting the programmer know that it's done
16:15 < mpl> I'll try to cope with that later.
16:15 < niemeyer> wrtp: Also, it is consistent in the sense that if n <
len(buf), you know err is set
16:16 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g8lkq by [Luuk van Dijk] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- [68]l: expose genasmsym.
16:16 < niemeyer> So feels like a pretty good API.  Pretty close to POSIX
too, without any coincidences.
16:16 < wrtp> niemeyer: that's not true.  it's perfectly ok to return a
short read with no error.
16:16 < wrtp> niemeyer: reads from the network often do.
16:18 < niemeyer> wrtp: Indeed..  I was thinking about an API which I read
recently, but I can't recall what it is now..
16:18 < wrtp> bufio seems to go to some effort to avoid returning n > 0
and err != nil
16:18 < Tv> getting both data and error is probably not desired
16:18 < Tv> POSIX can't do that, so most people don't expect that
16:18 < wrtp> that's what i think
16:18 < niemeyer> wrtp: Ah, yeah, it was bufio, nevermind
16:18 < Tv> usually what you get is the error on the next read
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16:19 < wrtp> Tv: yup
16:19 < niemeyer> """
16:19 < niemeyer> If nn < len(p), also returns an error explaining
16:19 < niemeyer> why the read is short.  At EOF, the count will be
16:19 < niemeyer> zero and err will be os.EOF.
16:19 < niemeyer> """
16:19 < Tv> niemeyer: that smells a bit iffy :-/
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16:20 < wrtp> hmm, i think niemeyer wins
16:20 < Tv> i guess it'll just be EINTR etc often
16:20 < Tv> i fear people won't know to check it
16:20 < Tv> or, basically, check err and ignore the data
16:20 < wrtp> i can see why bufio needs to do that too
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16:21 < wrtp> actually, i don't
16:23 < Tv> reading bufio.Reader.Read actually disagrees with the comment
16:23 < wrtp> Tv: i'm not sure it does
16:23 < Tv> oh wait except i missed the for loop
16:23 < Tv> that way nn can be >0
16:23 < wrtp> yup
16:24 < wrtp> i missed it too the first time
16:24 < mpl> that's tricky.  I would indeed at first try discard the data if
err != nil, unless I know what error I'm expecting.
16:25 < Tv> that seems awfully confusing
16:25 < Tv> i'd expect every C programmer to get it wrong
16:25 < Tv> somebody want to file an issue ;)
16:26 < mpl> I think wrtp unwilligly volunteered himself :)
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16:29 < wrtp> one of the interesting loopholes in the documentation, as a
consequence of the ad-hoc nature of go interfaces, is that there's no definitive
place to document the behaviour of the methods of a particular interface...
16:30 < wrtp> actually, io.Reader does a pretty good job.
16:30 < wrtp> why didn't i look there first.
16:31 * wrtp should RTFM!
16:31 < wrtp> "// Read may return a non-zero number of bytes with a non-nil
err.
16:31 < wrtp> "
16:31 < wrtp> "In particular, a Read that exhausts the input may return n
> 0, os.EOF."
16:32 < Tv> http://imagemacros.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/its_a_trap.jpg
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16:34 < mpl> 18:33 < wrtp> one of the interesting loopholes in the
documentation, as a consequence of the ad-hoc nature of go interfaces, is that
there's no definitive place to document the behaviour of the methods of a
particular interface...
16:34 < mpl> ppl were asking the other day why I would want an easy way to
search for all the implementations of an interface in the doc, that's exactly why.
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16:35 < wrtp> looking at all the individual implementations doesn't
necessarily tell you the contract that the interface is expected to obey
16:36 < wrtp> i think documenting it on a particular interface type
definition (e.g.  in io.Reader) is probably the best way.
16:37 < mpl> wrtp: sure.  I meant that in the sense that when I'm wondering
something about the way I'm implementing my writer, I'd like to easily see the
other implementations of writers to give me examples, ideas.
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16:40 < wrtp> yeah, sure
16:40 < wrtp> i think that godoc will do it eventually.
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16:50 < Soultaker> what is an easy way to split a string by whitespace?
16:51 < niemeyer> Tv: re.  filing the error,
http://blog.labix.org/2010/06/17/the-forgotten-art-of-error-checking
16:51 < Namegduf> strings.Split
16:51 < Soultaker> that takes a fixed seperator, right?
16:52 < Tv> python imaplib is a horrible example ;)
16:52 < Soultaker> I was thinking more like TrimSpace
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16:52 < Tv> niemeyer: the real problem is going against POSIX and surprising
people
16:52 < Soultaker> I can obviously write it myself, but it seems so common
that I was hoping there was a standard function for it
16:52 < Namegduf> Ah, strings.Fields
16:52 -!- skejoe [~skejoe@188.114.142.231] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
16:53 < Namegduf> "Fields splits the string s around each instance of one or
more consecutive white space characters"
16:53 < Soultaker> Namegduf: ah, thank you!  that's exactly what I was
looking for.
16:53 < Namegduf> No problem.
16:53 < niemeyer> Tv: I don't know what you mean by that
16:53 < Tv> niemeyer: POSIX gives you either data or error, never both at
the same time
16:54 < Tv> i expect a lot of people write foo, err := bar.Read(); if err !=
nil { fail here }
16:54 < Namegduf> Actually, no
16:54 < Namegduf> I know to check for EOF
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16:55 < Namegduf> And POSIX will happily return EINTR, which is also invalid
for such code.
16:55 < Namegduf> (Go will not, though)
16:55 < Tv> Namegduf: when POSIX returns EINTR or something, the *same* read
will not return data
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16:56 < Namegduf> No, but that's irrelevant to what I said.
16:56 < Namegduf> I was disagreeing with your second line.
16:56 < niemeyer> Tv: Reading the implementation of Read() in os, I don't
see how there's disagreement there
16:56 < Namegduf> Saying that no, I wouldn't write that, because it'd be
wrong for both POSIX *and* Go.
16:56 < niemeyer> Tv: Nothing fancy happens there
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17:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g8pRO by [Russ Cox] in 4 subdirs of
go/src/cmd/ -- 5l, 6l, 8l: separate pass to fix addresses
17:22 < HollyRain> which is the best type for handling of text characters?
I was using bytes.Buffer because it has WriteRune() but cann't be inserted new
data
17:22 < HollyRain> would be better to use IntVector for it?
17:23 < Namegduf> Depends what you want to do with them?
17:24 < KirkMcDonald> HollyRain: I don't understand what you mean by "can't
be inserted new data."
17:25 < HollyRain> I mean insert a char.  before of the last character
17:25 < KirkMcDonald> Ah.
17:25 < HollyRain> it's for a line editor
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17:27 < cbeck> Perhaps a gap buffer of some sort?
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17:27 < KirkMcDonald> Yeah, a gap buffer is a thing.  But in particular, I
suspect you'll need to implement your own data structure.
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17:29 < skelterjohn> func insertCharAt(buf string, index int, c byte) string
{return buf[0:index]+string(c)+buf[index:len(buf)]}
17:29 < skelterjohn> ?
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17:30 < skelterjohn> can't beat that for space complexity
17:31 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: So you want to allocate a new string and
copy the buffer into it every time the user inserts a character.
17:31 < skelterjohn> no one said what we're trying to optimize, here
17:31 < KirkMcDonald> He mentioned making a line editor.
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17:31 < KirkMcDonald> So in that context, the "buffer" may be the current
line.
17:32 < HollyRain> yes, but the changes as done in the buffer until that it
is showed (after of pressing rturn)
17:32 < skelterjohn> responds to human typing?
17:32 < skelterjohn> if it responds to human typing, no need to be quick
about it
17:32 < HollyRain> s/as/are
17:32 < skelterjohn> which means having simpler code can be a big benefit
17:33 < skelterjohn> i'd define an interface for this, do an inefficient but
easy to debug version like i did above, and then if it needs it write a more
efficient version by being clever about data structures
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17:39 < Soultaker> hmm, Go's RNG isn't seeded by default?
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17:45 < skelterjohn> Soultaker: nope
17:46 < Soultaker> that's a shame.
17:47 < Soultaker> no way to seed it randomly either, as far as I can tell?
17:47 < Soultaker> (that's one of the few functions which are very hard to
implement correctly, manually and portably.)
17:47 < Namegduf> "seed it randomly"?
17:47 < skelterjohn> Seed(time.Nanoseconds())
17:47 < Namegduf> You can seed it with the current time
17:48 < skelterjohn> pretty portable
17:48 < Namegduf> Which is the normal approach.
17:48 < Soultaker> yeah, I do rand.Seed((1e9*sec + nsec) ^
(int64(os.Getpid()) << 48)) now
17:48 < skelterjohn> that sounds silly
17:48 < skelterjohn> just use what i did
17:48 < skelterjohn> unless it's possible that some programs will start at
the exact same time in nanoseconds, you're safe
17:48 < skelterjohn> beyond that it's just the quality of the RNG, not your
seed
17:49 < Soultaker> having to find a semi-random source of entropy manually
is what's silly.
17:49 < Namegduf> There's no such thing as "semi-random".
17:50 < Namegduf> There's only psuedorandom.
17:50 < Soultaker> the current time is semi-random in the sense that it
varies but it's predictable.
17:50 < Soultaker> I'd much prefer to pull however many bytes of state the
RNG uses from /dev/urandom
17:50 < Namegduf> Yes, but that doesn't matter, unless you're using your RNG
for cryptography.
17:50 < Namegduf> And you should *never use your RNG for cryptography*.
17:50 < skelterjohn> if you want to do cryptography, you have the right to
be more clever
17:51 < skelterjohn> if you just want random behavior, time.Nanoseconds() is
entirely sufficient
17:52 < Namegduf> If someone having the source of the RNG and the program
being able to very painfully calculate the "next" random value is a problem
17:52 < Soultaker> is time.Nanoseconds() guaranteed to have nanosecond
resolution?
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17:52 < Namegduf> Then you need a solution suitable for crypto.
17:52 < Namegduf> If not, the time works.
17:52 < Namegduf> And the PID is HORRIBLE because programs started on system
startup actually will hit the same PID fairly often.
17:52 < Namegduf> (Relatively speaking)
17:53 < Soultaker> hence the bitshift ;)
17:53 < Namegduf> A bitshift does not add any additional bits of entropy.
17:53 < skelterjohn> time.Nanoseconds() probably does not have nanosecond
resolution
17:53 < Soultaker> no, what it does is ensure that two programs started at
the same time will still use a different seed (with high probability)
17:53 < skelterjohn> but you probably also aren't going to launch two
programs on the same CPU cycle
17:53 < Namegduf> The normal approach in C is to seed with the system time
17:53 < Namegduf> To the second
17:54 < Soultaker> no, my approach in C is to used
(getpid()<<16)^(time(NULL)) :P
17:54 < Soultaker> for the same reasons.
17:54 < Namegduf> I didn't say "your approach"
17:54 < skelterjohn> Namegduf: doesn't cut it when you run thirty random
experiments simultanteously
17:54 < Namegduf> I wouldn't presume to guess at your approach.
17:54 < skelterjohn> which is a standard case for me, anyway
17:54 < skelterjohn> but Nanoseconds() cuts it
17:54 < Namegduf> Also, repeating RNGs are useful in many areas where RNGs
are useful, so unseeded ones are quite useful.
17:55 < skelterjohn> oh yes - we definitely don't want the RNG seeded for
us, with no choice to seed it manually
17:55 < skelterjohn> that kind of thing makes machine learning stuff insane
to debug
17:56 < Namegduf> Soultaker: I think the reason you're finding manual
seeding to be so painful is probably that you're overkilling it.
17:56 < Soultaker> unseeded ones are useful, but that's what the Seed()
function is for.
17:56 < Soultaker> I know I am, I just wish I didn't have to do it at all,
and not think about timer resolution or the range of pids.
17:57 < Namegduf> I don't.
17:57 < skelterjohn> you don't.  just use nanoseconds
17:57 < Namegduf> I seed with the current system time.
17:57 < skelterjohn> everything will work
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18:03 < Soultaker> grmbl, and then I have to import time just to use rand :/
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18:03 < Soultaker> I'll do it, but I won't like it!
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20:24 < TheMue> re
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20:49 < klup> hello , i try the nacl example : 4s.out , it works with the
command "nacl -M 4s.out" but 4s.html don't work inside chrome (with nacl plugin) ,
somebody know why ? thanks
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22:09 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g8LjU by [Russ Cox] in 7 subdirs of go/src/ --
5l, 6l, 8l: link pclntab and symtab as ordinary rodata symbols
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22:26 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g8Mpw by [Russ Cox] in go/src/cmd/ld/ -- 8l:
fix references to INITDAT in windows pe.c
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22:43 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g8NMU by [Nigel Tao] in 2 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/ -- nntp: remove nntp package from the standard library.
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22:59 < plexdev> http://is.gd/g8OXB by [Yasuhiro Matsumoto] in
go/src/pkg/os/ -- os: change TestForkExec so it can run on windows
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--- Log closed Wed Oct 20 00:00:11 2010