--- Log opened Sun Apr 24 00:00:04 2011
--- Day changed Sun Apr 24 2011
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01:08 < sublimepua> are there any like oreilly or sams books on Go yet?
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01:34 < nbm> What's the easiest way to draw to a graphical window in Go? SDL
bindings?
01:35 < nbm> I just want to show my 2-d arrays to people.  Colored pixels
would be good enough.
01:40 < fhs> you can create a PNG using image/png
01:40 < nbm> hmm, that could work
01:45 < nbm> Ideally, I'd like something real-timey though...like a canvas
widget in gtk/qt.
01:54 < edsrzf> You could use exp/draw/x11 depending on your OS
01:58 < nbm> That sounds promising.
01:58 < nbm> All the searches have shown me is a big pile of 3rd party
libraries in various states of abandonment.
01:58 < edsrzf> Yeah :/
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02:52 < nbm> Alright, so I use exp/draw/x11's NewWindow() and it doesn't
apper to give me an error, but a window appears and immediately disappears.  Is
there any sample code that uses this thing anywhere?  I don't see "exp/draw/x11"
anywhere in the distribution.
02:56 < exch> nbm: after opening it, yuo need to go into a for {} loop and
poll the Event queue it exposes
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02:58 < nbm> ahh
02:58 < nbm> Is that written somewhere, or is the source the documentation?
02:59 < exch> the source is the documentation in this case
03:00 < nbm> Hmm, maybe I'll write up a howto when I get this thing working.
03:01 < damikin11> nbm, if you get a howto, i'll be interested in reading
it!
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03:04 < nbm> Sounds good to me.  Go needs more documentation that isn't just
a reference.
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03:29 < russell_h> if I have a struct with a map as a field, do I have to
create the map with make() separately from allocating the struct?
03:30 < krutcha1> yup, pretty sure you do
03:30 < russell_h> makes sense
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03:44 < exch> At the risk of sounding like a dumbass, why can't I compare
two complex numbers to eachother?  specifically: 'complex64 < complex64' is
illegal
03:49 < krutcha1> I saw some stuff on the newsgroup discussing concensus for
operating on complex numbers
03:49 < krutcha1> there may have been no concensus as to whether to compare
magnitude, real part, i part, etc?
03:49 < exch> bit weird.  I can add/subtract/multiply/divide them.  Just not
compare
03:49 < exch> it's possible
03:50 < krutcha1> can you mix a condition statement with a range clause in a
For?
03:51 < exch> Not that I am aware of
03:51 < krutcha1> :(
03:52 < krutcha1> would be nice for ranging on channels which will hang
forever unless you close them
03:59 < Namegduf> krutcha1: So close them?
03:59 < Namegduf> If you want to stop reading even though the writer is not
done yet, then you can.
04:00 < Namegduf> But that does require an explicit break and probably isn't
worth special syntax.
04:00 < krutcha1> I'm waiting for responses from N torrent trackers, and
collecting the results as they come in, forcing me to count goroutines, collect
responses and decrement the counter, then manually break out of the range clause
04:01 < Namegduf> I think "not using range" might be the best idea there.
04:01 < krutcha1> agree
04:01 < Namegduf> Just use a regular for loop, containing a read operation.
04:01 < Namegduf> You have a known count, and really want to "read X times"
rather than "read values and for each value, do this"
04:02 < krutcha1> pretty much yeah
04:02 < krutcha1> as long as failed connections pepper the channel with
nil's
04:02 < Namegduf> This happens a bit with "wait until all the goroutines I
started stop" in main()
04:03 < krutcha1> yup, thats exactly what I'm experimenting with
04:03 < krutcha1> what's the best language way to do that very very very
common operation
04:04 < Namegduf> A for loop.
04:05 < Namegduf> for i := count; i--; i > 0; { <-ch }
04:05 < Namegduf> Minus that semicolon after i > 0
04:05 < Namegduf> And swapping i-- and it around.
04:08 < krutcha1> yeah, just felt clumsy to me (albeit simple and easy to
understand)
04:09 < krutcha1> it's the lazy programmer in me expecting such a common
operation to be scaffold free
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04:12 < Namegduf> It's a lot easier to type that than to remember a magic
trick for every common operation.
04:13 < Namegduf> Go doesn't have much syntactic sugar.
04:13 < krutcha1> I like that about it
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04:16 < krutcha1> just in this case something like join/collect would be
nice rather than pasting the same collect loop, more index variables, etc every
time I use go f(x)
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04:19 < jessta_> krutcha1: have you looked at waitgroup?
04:19 < krutcha1> yeah
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04:20 < krutcha1> it didn't simplify the code, and required me to pass the
waitgroup into the goroutine so it could call 'done' on it
04:26 < krutcha1> maybe I can implement a threadpool receiver that hides all
of this, and gives me timeouts etc
04:26 < krutcha1> just to tidy up all the i++,i--, count, break's required
04:27 < krutcha1> prevents me from seeing what the code is trying to do,
which is launch 10 go routines, then collect their results and move on
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04:37 < Namegduf> Are you really doing that so often?
04:37 < Namegduf> If so, making a function do it might make sense.
04:38 < krutcha1> not often in code, just in every program (almost)
04:38 < Namegduf> I wouldn't bother then.
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04:40 < krutcha1> I'm not going to :P I'm just being whiny
04:40 < krutcha1> on the upside it seems to have collected the tracker
results nicely..  now for the harder part(s)
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05:14 < krutcha1> I didn't change a lick of functionality, and went from 926
lines of code to 825
05:14 < krutcha1> byebye kruft!
05:16 < uriel> krutcha1: welldone
05:18 < krutcha1> it was largely an undoing of my first go at working with
empty interfaces
05:19 < krutcha1> I had a wrapper with a type, and a bunch of
wrapping/unwrapping
05:20 < krutcha1> and just switched to raw empty interfaces with .(type)
switches in some places
05:20 < krutcha1> surprisingly, there wasn't any situation that things
didn't work out for
05:23 < krutcha1> I also use type assertions, but often just for readability
(this may be bad form, or yield a performance hit)
05:24 < Namegduf> In general, it is.
05:25 < Namegduf> A type assertion is unsafe, in that it's the programmer's
job to make sure it's correct, the compiler can't check types for you.
05:25 < Namegduf> If you can avoid one or work with something still in an
interface, it's better.
05:25 < Namegduf> Sometimes you can't avoid them easily, though.
05:27 < krutcha1> yeah, I think I left a few assertions that don't stricty
need to be there, but several do (ie, calling range on an empty
interface.([]b_encoded_element) when pretty printing it
05:28 < Namegduf> Ideally, you avoid wrapping types in interfaces when
you'll need them out of the interface again lower down the call stack; you keep
the type known at compile-time all the way down.  But when writing code to handle
multiple types or such, that's not essentially easy.
05:29 < Namegduf> Or doable.
05:31 < krutcha1> if there is a way out of the interfaces I couldn't think
of it, but they didn't cause me that much pain, and it's all self contained within
a library so at some level I can keep an eye on the typeing
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05:32 < Namegduf> Yeah.
05:33 < Namegduf> It's fine.
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07:04 < taruti> Is there a way to make the default makefiles specify
stripping for 8l?
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09:25 < plexdev> http://is.gd/rZBp8l by [Nigel Tao] in
go/src/pkg/image/jpeg/ -- jpeg: decode to a YCbCr image instead of an RGBA image.
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09:45 < xulfer> plexdev: Sweet.  That should be fairly useful for steg
projects.
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11:08 < abiosoft> is there anyway I can retrieve filesystem roots like
File.listRoots() in java
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12:51 < tyha2> is it possible to coerce 'foo := []int{1,2,3}' into a
reflect.ArrayOrSliceValue so that I could deep copy it using reflect.Copy()?
12:52 < exch> rv := reflect.NewValue(foo) doesn't work?
13:02 < tyha2> exch: nope--reflect.Value doesn't implement Cap() from
ArrayOrSliceValue.  I see an example in xml/read.go, but it's more complicated
than I had hoped for.
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14:56 < boomtopper> hmm I must be missing something here but I do
os.Mkdir(filePath, 0666)
14:57 < boomtopper> and it gives a dir with no permission to create a file
in it?
15:00 < aiju> 0777
15:00 < aiju> the 1 bit is the permission to access the contents
15:01 < boomtopper> thanks aiju :)
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16:31 < nbm> I'm trying to figure out how to implement a copy method as a
required part of an interface.  If the interface is Foo, I can't have its
signature in the interface be be "Copy(item Foo) Foo" though because then my foo
type won't be seen as implementing Foo if it returns one of its own type.
16:31 < nbm> Is there a way to specify that the thing implementing the
interface returns one of its own type?
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16:50 < skelterjohn> no
16:51 < skelterjohn> typical thing to do would be to say type Copier
interface { Copy() Copier }
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17:13 < jessta_> nbm: it makes the underlying type leak through the
interface.
17:14 < jessta_> imagine dealing with a []Copier where when you called
Copy() on each of them they returned a different type
17:15 < jessta_> A type that, as a user of the interface, you can't actually
know
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17:29 < nbm> jessta_, I was hoping for "I don't need to know what type it is
because it implements the only interface I care about."
17:31 < nbm> So is there a normal way to implement interfaces to things that
can copy themselves?
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17:39 < jessta_> nbm: the normal way is as skelterjohn said
17:43 < jessta_> if I had an interface that was interface {Copy(item T) T}
and T was the type of the type satisfying the interface
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17:56 < kamaji> how do I uses ioutil?  do I have to reference io.ioutil ?
17:56 < kamaji> oh right import io/ioutil
17:56 < kamaji> ooops
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18:16 < kamaji> Is it possible to use closures with 'go' ?
18:16 < taruti> yes
18:17 < kamaji> You mean the go keyword right?
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18:18 < taruti> no
18:18 < kamaji> ah
18:18 < kamaji> i'm assuming the answer is no to that question then :)
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18:18 < taruti> func foo() { i := 5; return func() { return i } } <- that
is a closure
18:19 < kamaji> right...  so I have "func main() { i := 5; go func() {
something_with_i } }"
18:19 < kamaji> actually I wanted to write to a specific array index in my
anonymous function
18:20 < kamaji> so "arr[0] = 1; go func() { arr[1] = 2; }"
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18:20 < taruti> arr[0] = 1; go func() { arr[1] = 2; }() <- you need to
call the function with go.
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18:20 < madboy> dc
18:21 < kamaji> ahhh ok
18:21 < kamaji> thanks
18:21 < kamaji> that makes so much more sense
18:21 < kamaji> Is it bad practice to share memory like that?
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18:24 < TheMue> kamaji: yep
18:24 < kamaji> TheMue: then you'd better not tell anyone
18:24 < TheMue> kamaji: In most cases you should use channels for sharing
18:24 < kamaji> trouble is if you share a pointer on a channel it's just as
bad
18:24 < kamaji> and sending a slice over a channel is kinda pointless
18:24 < kamaji> hoho, pointless
18:24 < kamaji> cough
18:25 < TheMue> You've got a type containing a slice (or something else).
And it receives messages to modify or read it.
18:26 < kamaji> TheMue: you mean if that slice is shared?
18:26 < TheMue> kamaji: No, the slice isn't shared.
18:26 < TheMue> kamaji: The channels of the goroutine is shared.
18:27 < kamaji> but my anonymous function is giving a slice back to the main
thread
18:27 < kamaji> it's a slice of slices
18:27 < TheMue> kamaji: The goroutine is the equivalent of a class instance,
the data sent over the channels is like method calling.
18:28 < TheMue> kamaji: I would have to see the whole design.  But my own
design tries everything to avoid sharing.
18:28 < kamaji> I'll pastebin a representative snippet
18:29 < kamaji> I don't actually need concurrency I just thought it would be
interesting to do
18:29 < TheMue> If you don't need concurrency, why do you start goroutines?
18:30 < kamaji> TheMue: http://pastebin.com/wm69ybWN
18:30 < kamaji> just to do the work in parallel
18:32 < TheMue> Uh, doesn't look good.
18:32 < kamaji> hoho
18:32 < TheMue> How much cores, how much i/o channels does your machine
have?
18:33 < TheMue> How many directories are in the list?
18:33 < kamaji> 8 (sort of), ?, maybe 4
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18:33 < kamaji> I realise if you stick in like 100 directories it will just
end up shitting itself because of context swaps
18:34 < TheMue> Yep
18:34 < kamaji> those fuckers are expensive
18:35 < kamaji> Any decent amount of work on this machine is only reasonably
sped up by about 4-5 threads anyway
18:35 < TheMue> As long as there's only one i/o channel or all dirs are on
one channel there's no performance improvement
18:36 < TheMue> But you could start further processing of the data
immediately after it's read.
18:36 < kamaji> I meant more just cpu-bound operations in general, I only
tested that in C
18:36 < kamaji> what do oyu mean by i/o channel?
18:36 < kamaji> you*
18:37 < kamaji> Do you mean just the fact there is one disk?
18:38 < TheMue> E.g., or only one bundle (raid) using one channel.
18:39 < kamaji> ok yeah, makes sense
18:40 < kamaji> so how would you suggest communicating a slice of file data
between processes?
18:45 < TheMue> Here in this case e.g.  one loop reading the files (are they
large?) and passing the content to one channel.  Before you've started 4
goroutines all reading from that channel in a for fileContent := range
fileContentChan { ...  } statement.  Those process the content and pass their
results after finishing to a channel read by a single goroutine for the further
handling.  fileContent could be a slice of bytes.  if you buffer the
fileContentChan it will
18:45 < TheMue> more elastic too.
18:47 < kamaji> if you pass content on channels you're essentially copying
data though, no?
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18:57 < TheMue> kamaji: If you're passing slices you pass only references.
Slices are reference types.
18:57 < |Craig|> kamaji: if you send pointers over channels you don't copy
18:58 < kamaji> But then in both cases you're still sharing memory
18:58 < kamaji> so doesn't it make it a bit of a moot point?
18:59 < |Craig|> synchronized exchanges of control over slices of memory are
ok if thats what you want.  You can send the slice and have no other referances to
the memory
18:59 < TheMue> kamaji: You pass the responsibility over the slice to the
other goroutine.  But yes, you have to take care to not use the same memory
double.
19:00 < TheMue> kamaji: If you want to avoid it you have to take Erlang,
where everything is done via copying.
19:00 < |Craig|> go gives you tools to so safe concurrency, if does not give
you safe concurrency (some languages do, like Erlang)
19:02 < kamaji> i'm just curious really.  The concurrency i'm going to end
up doing doesn't really need any sharing, it's more just work distribution.  I
like the ability to share memory though, because forced copying is just a bit...
restrictive :P
19:03 < TheMue> kamaji: The solution shown above doesn't copy anything.
19:04 < TheMue> kamaji: It only passes references.  And your semantics
passes responsibility.
19:04 < TheMue> kamaji: Absolutely easy.
19:05 < kamaji> TheMue: I meant erlang's forced copying
19:06 < kamaji> whcih is why I like go :P
19:07 < TheMue> kamaji: Erlangs forced copying is an important base - with
others - for its robustness.
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19:10 < kamaji> That's because it was designed for networking, right?
19:10 < kamaji> I know you can do more guaranteed concurrency checking with
concrete semantics
19:10 < kamaji> like static checking for deadlock
19:11 < TheMue> It has been designed for a large telco switch.
19:11 < kamaji> oh yeah, it's ericsson right?
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19:12 < TheMue> kamaji: Go lets you design appls which avoid deadlocks.  But
you have to care for.  You can produce them like in other languages.
19:12 < kamaji> hell, I bet I can get a good livelock in erlang going :P
19:12 < TheMue> Yep, Ericsson.  It's a great system.
19:13 < kamaji> the only strict concurrent languages like that i've used are
Occam and XC
19:13 < kamaji> although I can't remember how strict XC is, I think it
disallows pointers
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19:36 < ccallahan> What does "syntax error: nested func not allowed" mean?
19:36 < aiju> that you're not allowed to nest functions
19:38 < kamaji> smartass :P
19:39 < aiju> well, what kind of answer do you expect?
19:40 < kamaji> I expect exactly that answer :D
19:41 < ccallahan> Maybe tell me how the hell I fix it because I'm a n00b?
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19:41 < kamaji> ccallahan: pastebin
19:42 < ccallahan> http://pastebin.com/W3b3rzeq
19:43 < kamaji> ccallahan: func var has ( instead of {
19:44 < kamaji> or maybe you haven't got a function body
19:44 < aiju> ccallahan: usually there is no hidden meaning behind Go
messages
19:44 < aiju> ccallahan: if they seem strange, nobody can help you if you
don't show code
19:44 < kamaji> i'm not even sure what that is...
19:44 < ccallahan> kamaji.  I'm trying to call a enviroment variable.
19:45 < kamaji> do you want const( ) ?
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19:51 < exch> 'func var() ( NOMHOME = os.Getenv("NOMHOME") )' doesn't make
much sense..  'var' is not a legal function name and a function body is in {..}
instead of (..)
19:53 < exch> I'm guessing you want 'var ( NOMHOME string )' or just 'var
NOMHOME string' and then do the os.Getenv() bit inside the init or main function
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--- Log closed Mon Apr 25 00:00:50 2011