--- Log opened Thu Apr 29 00:00:53 2010
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00:37 < kmeyer> Is the copy() function documented somewhere?
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00:37 < kmeyer> I see an example or two of it in effective go, and it's
briefly mentioned but not defined in go_spec.html...
00:37 < kmeyer> it's copy(dst, src), right?
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00:41 < exch> yup
00:43 < KirkMcDonald> http://golang.org/doc/go_spec.html#Copying_slices
00:45 < kmeyer> oh, weird
00:45 < kmeyer> I wonder why those weren't showing up earlier...
00:45 < kmeyer> the "code" boxes were empty for me when I was checking
go_spec.html
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02:30 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bMo0C by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/xml/ -- xml:
allow text segments to end at EOF
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02:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bMoQe by [Russ Cox] in go/src/pkg/net/ -- net:
do not require newline at end of resolv.conf
02:46 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bMoQl by [Russ Cox] in 3 subdirs of
go/src/pkg/runtime/darwin/ -- darwin: bsdthread_create can fail; print good error
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02:59 < jessta> hmmm...semi-colons on the mailing list again
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04:07 < nf> ;_;
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04:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bMuzK by [Andrey Mirtchovski] in
go/doc/codelab/wiki/ -- codelab/index.html "os" needs to be imported because
os.Error is used almost immediately
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04:34 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bMvrC by [Andrey Mirtchovski] in
go/doc/codelab/wiki/ -- codelab/index.html: a few typos.
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04:36 < kmeyer> anyone getting failures in all.bash due to port lookups
failing?
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04:43 < Jimmio> Hey all.  I want to get started with Go. Is there an Ubuntu
repository setup anywhere for Go? I dislike using my home dir for such things, and
I don't like manually polluting /usr.
04:45 < JBeshir> Try /usr/local/
04:47 < kmeyer> Jimmio: nope, Go isn't really packaging-friendly yet
04:48 < Jimmio> :<
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06:03 < jessta> Jimmio: it changes too often for a package
06:04 < Jimmio> That was over an hour ago o:
06:04 < Jimmio> but yeah, that happens, doesn't it?
06:04 < Jimmio> Is there a simple svn co I can do?
06:04 < jessta> it's a mercurial repo
06:05 < jessta> I think there is also a mirror on github, but I don't think
there is an svn mirror
06:05 < jessta> svn sucks, btw
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06:17 < nf> Jimmio: why don't you want to install to $HOME or /usr/local ?
06:17 < nf> Jimmio: if you follow the installation instructions at
golang.org/doc/install.html it will "just work"
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06:18 < Jimmio> It didn't work.
06:18 < Jimmio> $GOBIN is not set
06:18 < Jimmio> following the install docs
06:18 < Jimmio> lemme guess, export it?
06:18 < Jimmio> go/bin?
06:19 < kmeyer> jessta: not really
06:19 < kmeyer> the problem is mostly that it isn't set up to be installed
and work nicely with a package manager
06:19 < Jimmio> oh wait, I could set GOBIN to /usr/bin/...  is that a bad
idea?
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06:20 < nf> Jimmio: no, that would work fine
06:21 < nf> $GOBIN defaults to $HOME/bin
06:21 < nf> (I don't have it set on mine)
06:21 < nf> so if you just "mkdir ~/bin" it should work, or set it to
/usr/bin/
06:21 < jessta> kmeyer: yeah, it changes too often to put in the work to
make a package for each release
06:22 < kmeyer> the go authors don't have to do the packaging
06:22 < kmeyer> all they have to do is make it installable in a
semi-reasonable fashion
06:22 < Jimmio> *ponders if it's really possible to compile faster than GCC*
06:22 < Jimmio> xP
06:22 < kmeyer> packagers will do the rest
06:22 < nf> kmeyer: why is it not installable in a "reasonable fashion"?
06:22 < nf> kmeyer: environment variables?
06:23 < kmeyer> among other things, yes
06:23 < nf> what else?
06:23 < Jimmio> I mean, sometimes it takes a year for Hello World to link.
Other times, it's the fastest thing I've ever seen.
06:23 < jessta> java and python require environment variables
06:23 < nf> (i need to know, because i'm probably the one who will fix it)
06:23 < kmeyer> nf: to configure anything else, you need to edit...  a shell
script
06:23 < nf> kmeyer: you're talking about a binary release, right?
06:24 < kmeyer> um, maybe
06:24 < kmeyer> what do you mean by a binary release?
06:24 < kmeyer> nf: then there's the installed binaries pointing back to the
source directory for the libraries
06:24 < nf> i mean a package that contains the compiler/tool binaries, the
/pkg/arch/ objects, and probably the source for docs purposes
06:24 < kmeyer> yep, that's what I'm talking about
06:25 < nf> the package objects (for linking) are in $GOROOT/pkg/, not
$GOROOT/src/pkg/
06:25 < kmeyer> $GOROOT being the mercurial checkout directory
06:25 < kmeyer> I'd call that source
06:26 < kmeyer> distributions don't really want to ship a mercurial checkout
somewhere in /usr
06:26 < nf> it doesn't have to be a mercurial checkout
06:26 < nf> there's plenty that could be stripped out
06:26 < kmeyer> sure, but as far as I know it needs to be done by hand right
now
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06:27 < nf> how so?  couldn't you just write a shell script that moves
$GOROOT/src/ and $GOROOT/pkg/ to the "package distro root" or whatever it is ?
06:28 < nf> there's always going to be some sort of labour, be it automated
or manual, involved in packaging a release
06:28 < kmeyer> sure
06:28 < kmeyer> it should be automated :)
06:28 < nf> what i'm keen to understand is what part of the go project's
structure or procedures need to be changed to accomodate binary releases
06:29 < kmeyer> so, I think the way it's structured right now, the binaries
that get built hardcode $GOROOT/pkg
06:29 < kmeyer> is this incorrect?
06:30 < nf> yes i think so
06:31 < kmeyer> ok, so they look at the environment variable?  how can I
just write a shell script to move $GOROOT/pkg then -- they'll look at the
environment variable and won't find it
06:31 < kmeyer> (well, ok; we can change GOROOT.  but then $GOROOT/src moves
with it.)
06:32 < nf> actually 6l/6g should look at the *current* environment variable
06:32 < nf> it's not compiled in
06:32 < nf> (looking at src/lib9/goos.c)
06:32 < kmeyer> right, I understood that for the past 2 lines
06:32 < nf> ok, i wasn't suree.
06:32 < nf> so your issue is with keeping /src/ and /pkg/ together?
06:33 < nf> couldn't $GOROOT be /usr/lib/go ? /usr/local/lib/go ?
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06:33 < kmeyer> sure
06:33 < kmeyer> hm
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06:34 < kmeyer> the environment variable(s) still need to go
06:34 < nf> otherwise another solution, which involves changing the way go
works a bit, would be to introduce a $GOPKG environment variable
06:34 < nf> but i have a PYTHONPATH set ?
06:34 < kmeyer> I don't
06:35 < nf> a packager could trivially modify src/lib9/goos.c to hard-code
such paths
06:35 < nf> (and arch, and goos)
06:35 < kmeyer> right, but say goos.c changes
06:35 < kmeyer> packagers want to hit 'rebuild' and update the package to
the new version
06:35 < nf> but packagers do this all the time for other projects ?
06:35 < kmeyer> maintaining a patch against a core C file doesn't really
sound great
06:35 < kmeyer> not really
06:35 < nf> a core c file ?!?
06:36 < kmeyer> mostly it's passing various options to an autoconf configure
script
06:36 < nf> it has changed once in the project's lifetime i believe
06:36 < kmeyer> ok, ok
06:36 < nf> have a look at it, it is incredible trivial
06:36 < nf> 'incredibly'
06:36 < kmeyer> path?
06:36 < nf> src/lib9/goos.c
06:36 < kmeyer> ah
06:37 < kmeyer> well, maybe it's worth making a package of at this point.
06:37 < nf> for which distro were you thinking?
06:38 < kmeyer> fedora, but no immediate rush to get it included
06:38 < nf> yeah, i don't know how the process works with them, or really
any other entity
06:38 < kmeyer> i'm pretty familiar with it ;)
06:38 < nf> but our philosophy so far has been that Go is changing too fast
to be worth it at this point
06:38 < kmeyer> yep, I know
06:39 < nf> but it might be cool to have an installable .rpm
06:39 < kmeyer> mhm
06:39 < nf> (and .deb)
06:39 < nf> do it!  ;)
06:39 < kmeyer> something that watches hg/git and rebuilds automatically on
releases sounds reasonable, yeah?
06:39 < kmeyer> :)
06:39 < nf> yeah that sounds good
06:39 < nf> i think jpoirier has automated his windows releases
06:39 < kmeyer> neat
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06:43 < nf> (people still use fedora?!  ;)
06:43 < kmeyer> crazy, right?  :)
06:45 < chressie> there are some nice working archlinux packages for go ;)
06:45 < kmeyer> I'll take a look there, thanks
06:46 < chressie> http://repos.archlinux.org/wsvn/community/go/trunk/
06:46 < chressie> http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=31913
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07:06 < Jimmio> Hello segy, How ar-
07:06 < Jimmio> Segmentation Fault
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07:08 < Jimmio> So..  what are the chances to allow braces to not be on the
same line as function declarations?  I can't stand that coding style.
07:08 < nf> Jimmio: not going to happen, sorry.
07:08 < Jimmio> I can have my cake but not eat it :<
07:08 < nf> what does it matter?
07:09 < Jimmio> It's annoying.  I can't switch entirely to Go. I can't leave
C++ in the past..  and I'm not changing my C++ coding style which imo is cleaner
than Go's current.
07:10 < Jimmio> As they say, can't please everybody xP
07:10 < Jimmio> and I understand the reason for it
07:10 < nf> you want to switch to a new language, but you don't want to
change the syntax you use?  weird.
07:11 < Jimmio> but really, couldn't that "auto semicolon-a-nizer" detect an
end parenthesis and not put a semicolon there?  ._.
07:11 < nf> i don't really see why it should bother you so much
07:12 < nf> when i wrote c, i would use the same style you do, but i don't
do it anymore.  i got used to it soon enough.  it's a pretty minor point, isn't
it?
07:12 < nf> the variable declaration order is also backwards to C++/Java
07:12 < nf> there are a lot of differences
07:13 < Jimmio> I guess it is.  Go feels like Python on a drug of some sort.
07:13 < Jimmio> It's sooo much faster, yet odd, comparatively.
07:13 < Jimmio> But I don't mind the reversed var declaration.  Makes sense,
I suppose.
07:13 < KirkMcDonald> Jimmio: I think the drug is named "static typing."
07:13 < nf> i'm writing some python code right now, and i'm finding it a bit
irksome compared to Go (that i'm now used to)
07:14 < Jimmio> I don't mean to spam the chat...  but seeing as Python is
stupid and requires perfect tabbing (which I do anyway) to work..
07:14 < KirkMcDonald> Jimmio: Heh.
07:14 < KirkMcDonald> Jimmio: Not *that* perfect.
07:15 < nf> i don't mind python's whitespace rules
07:15 < nf> syntax is so unimportant, though
07:15 < nf> what matters is what you can do with the language
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07:16 < Jimmio> def say(what,times=1):
07:16 < Jimmio> for x = 0 in range(0,times):
07:16 < Jimmio> print(what);
07:17 < Jimmio> Sure, that's fun and all...  but you have to stop and go
"W...  what types are those?  x.x"
07:17 < KirkMcDonald> 'x = 0'?
07:17 < Jimmio> Meh.
07:17 < Jimmio> I'm tired, lemme alone >_>
07:17 < Jimmio> xD
07:17 < KirkMcDonald> Just: for _ in range(times):
07:17 < Jimmio> Yeah, I know..
07:18 < KirkMcDonald> And: print what
07:18 < Jimmio> Python3
07:18 < KirkMcDonald> True.
07:18 < Jimmio> print(what);
07:18 < Jimmio> Semicolon optional
07:18 < KirkMcDonald> def say(what, time=1): print('\n'.join([what] *
times))
07:18 < KirkMcDonald> Though, that's stupider than the for loop.
07:19 < KirkMcDonald> But it fits on one line!
07:19 < KirkMcDonald> Heh.
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07:19 < Jimmio> Except it wouldn't parse.
07:19 < Jimmio> because of whitespace
07:19 < KirkMcDonald> Hmm?
07:19 < KirkMcDonald> No, that works fine.
07:19 < Jimmio> Erm..
07:19 < Jimmio> Has to be new-lined and tabbed.
07:19 < KirkMcDonald> The suite of a compound statement can be on the same
line as the statement as long as it consists only of simple statements.
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07:20 < Jimmio> Oh, that makes sense, mhm, yeah :D
07:20 < Jimmio> xP
07:20 < Jimmio> I've been staring at C++ code all day long..  wondering why
the hell template classes with operator overloads have to be so fussy.
07:20 < Jimmio> xP
07:20 < Jimmio> Mainly..  it's const correctness that is again getting me
x.x
07:21 < KirkMcDonald> I try to use C++ as little as possible.
07:21 < bcgraham> test!
07:22 < bcgraham> i finally figured out why i couldn't send any messages to
this room regardless of client for days now
07:22 < Jimmio> I use it daily.  xP As great as Go could be, I don't know it
well enough, and Python is epically slow..  No real live Javascript as a compiled
language AFAIK...  Mono C# isn't small enough...  Obj-C is just...  ugly.
07:22 < bcgraham> my nick wasn't registered
07:23 < KirkMcDonald> I use Python for most things.
07:23 < KirkMcDonald> Speed is overrated.
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07:23 < Jimmio> ASM is ASM...  and ASM is...  well...  mov from,me
07:24 < Jimmio> move away from me xP
07:24 < Jimmio> I probably reversed the direction..  I haven't needed ASM
for a while now.
07:24 < KirkMcDonald> It's MOV dest, src if I remember right.
07:25 < nf> KirkMcDonald: for most x86 assemblers, yes
07:25 < Jimmio> I'm in the process of writing a simple game engine..  and
obviously, Python isn't a very good choice there.
07:25 < KirkMcDonald> Jimmio: Depends on the kind of game.
07:25 < KirkMcDonald> Jimmio: I'm contemplating writing a Rogue-like in
Python, for instance.
07:27 < Jimmio> Hmm.  I have a terrain going with ~70,000 polygons to test
file loading xP
07:28 < nf> people have made games in python
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07:28 < nf> lots of them
07:28 < Jimmio> Yeah, I wasn't saying they haven't.
07:28 < nf> there's a project called pyGame which is a set of library
bindings and helpers specifically for that
07:28 < KirkMcDonald> Ehh.
07:28 < Jimmio> I remember one called 555 - Boom
07:28 < KirkMcDonald> pygame is just a fairly thin wrapper around SDL.
07:28 < Jimmio> 'twas fun.
07:30 < KirkMcDonald> If you wanted to write a 3D engine in as pure of
Python as possible, you'd probably get an OpenGL context from pygame, and then use
PyOpenGL (which is just a very thin wrapper around OpenGL).
07:30 < KirkMcDonald> Or (which is more typical) you'd write the engine in C
or C++, and expose it to Python via some sort of reasonable API.
07:31 < nf> yeah, not saying it's a good idea or what, but people do it
07:31 < nf> i keep meaning to try out the sdl wrappers for Go
07:31 < Jimmio> There's an SDL wrapper for Go already?
07:31 < Jimmio> I was about to ask that..
07:33 < nf> http://code.google.com/p/gosdl/
07:42 < Jimmio> Hm.
07:42 < Jimmio> I'll have to try it out tomorrow.
07:42 < Jimmio> Night all.
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08:21 < mpl> hello, here's a newbie question.  I want to use a function that
returns multiple value, like 'r, err := syscall.Read(a,b)', but I don't care about
err (in that particular case) so I never use it.  Then the compiler will give an
error about that.
08:21 < mpl> how do I go around that?
08:21 < mpl> besides doing some silly/fake use of err...
08:22 < Kashia> r, _ :=
08:22 < Kashia> use the _ for variables you don't want
08:22 < mpl> ah cool, thanks.
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08:25 < mpl> Kashia: is that anywhere in the tutorials?  if not, maybe it
should...  just saying.
08:26 < Kashia> well, it's in effective go and of course the go-spec
08:29 < mpl> oh, I must have missed it in effective go, fair enough then.
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08:38 < Ziusudra> it's explained in the Maps section
http://golang.org/doc/effective_go.html#maps
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08:50 < mpl> Ziusudra: right, but there's a dedicated paragraph on Multiple
return value a few paragraphs above, so it would make sense to find that info
there as well.
08:50 < mpl> *values
08:52 < Ziusudra> i agree
08:53 < mpl> anyone here who can edit the site?
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08:56 < Ziusudra> it's used early on in the For section without much
explaination : for _, value := range m { // key is unused
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08:57 < Kashia> basically anyone can edit the site, it's in the golang
repository
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09:04 < mpl> oh well, maybe I'll submit a patch then, thx.
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10:33 < taruti> Anyone using web.go?
10:33 * taruti ponders whether to use that or plain http-package
10:34 < kmeyer> nf, chressie: installable go rpms at
http://konradm.fedorapeople.org/fedora/RPMS/x86_64/ ; (SRPM at
http://konradm.fedorapeople.org/fedora/SRPMS/go-0-0.20100427.fc12.src.rpm).
Should be bumped, rebuilt, and uploaded automatically on each Go release.
10:35 < kmeyer> good night all ;)
10:36 < kmeyer> (FWIW, that package is give-or-take identical to the Arch
AUR go-lang-hg package.  I'm fairly sure it doesn't meet Fedora standards because
I haven't spent any time on that yet.)
10:37 < uriel> kmeyer: cool
10:38 < kmeyer> thanks :)
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11:10 < taruti> Has anyone got openid code for Go?
11:12 < chressie> kmeyer: nice :)
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11:15 < manveru> great fun testing float math :|
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12:04 < nf> kmeyer: nice work!
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12:11 < taruti> How do I mark a pointer as having references in the C land?
12:11 < taruti> or just pass C integers and keep a map on the Go-side?
12:16 < uriel> kmeyer: your rpms seem to be more recent than the AUR
go-lang-hg I can find: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=31913
12:16 < uriel> anyone knows if there is a more up to date Go package for
Arch?
12:17 < Surma> @ uriel: The last one I used just pulled from hg, it was
always up2date
12:17 < uriel> ah, neat
12:18 < uriel> anyne knows if there are debian packages anywhere?
12:18 < Surma> uriel: yeah, as if ^^ I guess not except for some underground
backports
12:20 < uriel> and where can one find those underground backports?  :)
12:22 < Surma> uriel: I really don't know, they are not underground if I
knew, are they ;) No seriously, there's an offical backports page for debian, but
those provide almost as old software as the main repo.  So I can't do anymore than
google myself.
12:22 < Surma> But you could fix up a package yourself and offer it on you
page
12:23 < Surma> some might be thankful
12:25 < uriel> heh
12:25 < uriel> I'm just trying to collect references to the various packages
out there
12:25 < uriel> by the way, anyone knows if there is an ebuild somewhere?
12:26 < Tonnerre> I made RPM packages
12:27 < Tonnerre> For Fedora 12 only so far I think
12:27 < Tonnerre> I'll have fc13 and rhel5 covered too though
12:27 < Tonnerre> I wonder if I should leave that info somewhere
12:28 < mpl> uriel: if you haven't noted it, there are golang debs in maemo
repos (at least for the n900).
12:29 < uriel> Tonnerre: oh, I'd be happy to add links to
http://go-lang.cat-v.org
12:29 < uriel> I just added references to kmeyer's rpms
12:29 < uriel> mpl: ah, good point, had forgoten about that
12:30 < Tonnerre> uriel, http://blog.ancient-solutions.com/ / rpm -Uv
http://rpm.ancient-solutions.com/ancientsolutions-release-12-1.noarch.rpm
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12:30 < Tonnerre> uriel, once you installed the release rpm you can just yum
install golang
12:30 < Tonnerre> Plus you get updates
12:31 < uriel> ah...
12:31 < mpl> yah, same with debs of course.
12:32 < Tonnerre> I'm going to roll debs too at some point but I don't do
that yet
12:32 < uriel> oh, you package dmenu :)
12:32 < uriel> you should package 9base ;)
12:32 < mpl> uriel: but just in case someone wants to get them directly:
http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/g/golang/
12:32 < Tonnerre> uriel, hm, good point
12:32 < Tonnerre> uriel, are there specs for that someplace?
12:33 < uriel> specs?  no clue, I know there are debs in debian
12:33 < Tonnerre> uriel, and yes, I'm evil enough to package libdvdcss; I'm
in Switzerland, so it's legal here ;)
12:33 < uriel> http://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=9base
12:33 < uriel> cool :)
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14:59 < taruti> What are the semantics of go maps if there are multiple
go-routines accessing them?
15:03 < taruti> mmh.  so they do crash.
15:03 < uriel> taruti: maps are not 'thread safe'
15:03 < chressie> map operations are not atomic
(http://golang.org/doc/go_lang_faq.html#atomic_maps)
15:04 < uriel> usually you should arrange things so a single goroutine is
responsible for manipulating a map (or other such datastructure)
15:04 < taruti> uriel: yes, I'll just have bite the bullet and write a
lockless hashtable for my purposes.
15:04 < uriel> other goroutines can send it messages telling it what to
update via channels
15:04 < uriel> taruti: why?  use channels
15:06 < taruti> uriel: the same thing ended up using ets in erlang, channels
are nice but don't make sense for all purposes
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15:34 < taruti> this was suprisingly easy :)
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17:35 < kimelto> morning!
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18:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bNn1S by [Robert Griesemer] in go/doc/ -- go
spec: fix iota description
18:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bNn1W by [Christopher Wedgwood] in
go/src/pkg/net/ -- net: parser should handle EOF without newline properly.
18:12 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bNn2c by [Christopher Wedgwood] in
go/src/pkg/net/ -- net: use short variable declaration
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22:58 < newsham> how well would a large channel (of bytes) work as a buffer
for something like marshalling?
22:58 < newsham> would it be pretty inefficient?
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23:00 < taruti> newsham: 1) yes, 2) yes, 3) why not []byte instead of byte?
23:00 < newsham> i was thinking at the lowest level primitive it would
always be emitting one byte at a time
23:01 < newsham> but thats probably not true in some cases (ie.  emitting an
opaque sequence of bytes can be done all at once)
23:01 < newsham> but i think a lone byte would be the common case
23:01 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bNGHj by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
bug268
23:02 < newsham> ie, to emit x uint16, you'd emit x>>8 and then x
23:03 < newsham> hrmm, i guess there'd be no convenient way to represent EOF
though
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23:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/bNHJ1 by [Russ Cox] in 2 subdirs of go/ -- gc:
never include ( ) on singleton func return type
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23:43 < taruti> What is the relation of big vs bignum?
23:45 < jessta> taruti: I think big is the new, bignum is the old
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23:49 < taruti> jessta: ok
23:49 < taruti> slice literals are quite painfull :(
23:50 < taruti> is there any reason for wanting the type there?
23:50 < taruti> lots of code like: []*module.MyLongTypeName{v}
--- Log closed Fri Apr 30 00:00:53 2010