--- Log opened Tue May 18 00:00:06 2010
--- Day changed Tue May 18 2010
00:00 < Soultaker> I'm not too familiar with GCC internals, but there are
libraries like gnu pth that offer cooperative multithreading like goroutines,
right?
00:00 < Ginto8> but 8/6g can use multiple threads if you tell it to
00:00 < Ginto8> well idk I'm not familiar with it either, it was just on (I
believe) the go website
00:00 < Ginto8> but I'm not sure
00:02 < Soultaker> purely in theory I don't see why using GCC to generate
code would imply a different concurrency model, though I could understand if it's
a practical limitation of the current implementation
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00:20 < kmeyer> did gccgo get garbage collection yet?
00:21 < kmeyer> last I'd heard it just leaked all memory
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00:32 < Soultaker> maybe you could hook it up to that boehm gc?  not ideal
of course.
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01:04 < jesusaurus> what does 'internal compiler error: subnode not addable'
mean?
01:07 < KirkMcDonald> "Internal compiler error" sounds an awful lot like a
bug in the compiler.
01:08 < jesusaurus> it sure does
01:12 < Abablabab> When I used to work with occam when you hit compiler
errors you'd get really nice errors like 'Compiler error: 10'
01:17 < jessta> jesusaurus: from a bit of grepping, it appears to come from
cplx.c and "addable" is short for "addressable"
01:18 < jessta> which makes me want to have my morning coffee
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01:33 < kmeyer> morning?  :P
01:33 < kmeyer> it's 18:30 here :P
01:35 < jesusaurus> jessta: thanks, i found the line in cplx.c throwing the
error, but i still have no idea whats going on
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01:54 < jesusaurus> does anyone understand cplx.c well enough to tell me
what subnode() is doing?
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02:02 < jessta> jesusaurus: got a small example of code that triggers the
error?
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02:16 < jesusaurus> jessta: http://pastie.org/964837
02:17 < jesusaurus> line number 46 is giving me grief
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02:55 < MizardX> jesusaurus: I think that line 14 shoud be: var buff
[256]complex128
02:56 < MizardX> err...  that didn't solve it
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04:43 < drevell> does anyone know what happens on heap exhaustion?  crash?
04:43 < drevell> i guess i should just test it
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04:49 < kmeyer> OOM-killer eventually kills the process, if you're lucky
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04:57 < drevell> i'm thinking about responsible practices for a library, how
to detect and handle allocation failure
04:59 < kmeyer> it doesn't happen.
04:59 < kmeyer> realistically what happens nowadays is you'll keep getting
more and more heap or swap until the OOM killer kills your process, maybe.
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05:09 < drevell> that assumes oversubscribed memory and/or swap are enabled
though.  i know it's rare and quibbly but i'd like to do things "by the book"
05:09 < drevell> err overcommit, whatever it's called
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05:18 < kmeyer> the go runtime makes such assumptions all over the place
05:18 < kmeyer> likely it'll fail before your code does in such a bizarre
scenario
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05:28 < drevell> hm that's good to know, thanks
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05:35 < jessta> drevell: handling OOM properly is unlikely to actually ever
happen
05:35 < jessta> look at DBUS and how much code is has just for handling that
issue
05:37 < jessta> if you run out of memory it's probably because your program
is malfunctioning, or you're running it on a machines that doesn't meet it's
requirements
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05:43 < taruti> kmeyer: what would you do on an out-of-memory condition?
05:44 < drevell> taruti: to speak for myself, the ideal thing to do (as a
library) would be to return an error code to the caller and give it some chance to
bail out cleanly
05:45 < taruti> the issue is that one cannot do error reporting (allocates
memory) or GC (the oom killer will reap you)
05:46 < taruti> paniccing is a fine way of going down.  (don't remember
whether it panics atm)
05:47 < kmeyer> taruti: die spectacularly
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05:52 < jessta> drevell: how do you handle running out of stack space?
05:53 < jessta> handling oom requires returning an error, bailing out
cleanly all while not allocating any more memory
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05:55 < jessta> it's hard to do, and most people that do it actually do it
wrong
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05:57 < drevell> yeah, it's not something that i expect to be really viable.
but if there's a simple best practice that perhaps gives a fighting chance, i'd
use it.  but it's not really a big deal
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05:59 < jessta> and in terms of cleanly bailing out, what could you do other
than just quit with "out of memory"
06:01 < drevell> well i'm writing a library, that's up to the app.  if i was
writing an app (just for the sake of argument), i'd probably dellocate everything
i could (to hopefully give room for cleanup), flush files, then quit.
06:02 < jessta> de-allocation so often involves allocation
06:02 < drevell> how very lame
06:04 < jessta> and again, how do you handle running out of stack space?
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06:04 < drevell> is that even handleable?  how would you know?
06:04 < jessta> it's not
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06:04 < drevell> right, so forget that
06:04 < jessta> which is my point
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06:05 < drevell> my fault for the misunderstanding, when you said "stack"
above, i just read "heap" because i assumed you misspoke and i didn't want to be
pedantic
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06:06 < pizza_> well, couldn't you allocate the resources you'd need on
startup so they would be available in the case of resource exhaustion?
06:07 < drevell> how would that work for stack, though?  i can see it
working for heap
06:07 < jessta> pizza_: do you know at startup how much memory you require
for clean up?
06:07 < taruti> pizza_: the runtime may need to allocate memory.  also
applications are concurrent.
06:08 < jessta> drevell: you can't handle running out of stack space, how
programming langauge I've seen has a way to handle it
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06:11 < pizza_> jessta: for things like writing to a logfile i'd assume you
would
06:11 < drevell> jessta: right, i get that
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06:15 < jessta> drevell: so what the point of handling the unlikely
situtation of running out of heap memory when you'll still get screwed by the
unlikely situation of running out of stack memory
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06:15 < jessta> pizza_: as long as that memory wasn't currently swapped out
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06:19 < pizza_> hmm looks like mlock isn't implemented :/
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06:32 < wrtp> jesusaurus: you can get around your problem by creating a temp
variable.  e.g.  change line 46 to:x := buff[i]
06:32 < wrtp> t := real(x)
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06:37 < wrtp> jesusaurus: and the compiler's getting it wrong in two ways -
a) the subnode *is* addressable and b) it shouldn't need to be addressable
anyway...
06:40 < jessta> wrtp: got a fix?  I was trying to find the problem but I
haven't read much of the compiler yet
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06:51 < wrtp> jessta: no - i haven't looked any further
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08:09 < jessta> wrtp: it seems like it's checking if the "INDEX' node is
addressable...which seems silly
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08:13 < wrtp> jessta: well, the index node is the lval
08:13 < wrtp> jessta: which becomes the nc argument to subnode
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08:14 < wrtp> jessta: it's possible it's an entirely spurious test; or else
somewhere else in the compiler is supposed to make it addressable before calling
subnode
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10:04 < taruti> iant: my messages are again in the golang-dev spam queue
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11:33 < taruti> Is there a good tree implementation for Go?
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11:36 < jessta> taruti: I don't think anyone has done it, probably due to
the lack of generics
11:42 < taruti> meh, surely people have needed them?
11:48 < taruti> found http://github.com/runningwild/go-btree :)
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11:49 < pizza_> go source looks so clean
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12:02 < wrtp> pizza_: doesn't it just?  a breath of fresh air.
12:03 < wrtp> pizza_: mind you, the C written by the go authors looks pretty
clean too
12:03 < Abablabab> I've heard people call go ugly, i'd like to know what
they're smoking
12:03 < Abablabab> it's also probably quite helpful the compiler goes some
way to enforce style
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12:05 < exch> that and the gofmt tool make reading other people's code a lot
less of a pain in the ass.  which is definitely nice
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12:09 < jessta> exch: yeah, formating makes a big difference in terms of
readability
12:10 < jessta> people who write "char* a" instead of "char *a" confuse my
reading
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12:11 < jessta> I'm always amazed at how much of a difference it makes
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15:24 * BrowserUk agrees with jessta.  Cleanly and consistently formatted source
code is such a joy to work with.  Regardless of the language.  But the cleanliness
of Go, plus the sane and consistent formatting enforcement is one of the strongest
draws for me.
15:25 * BrowserUk just wishes it ran a little better where I am constrained to
operating :(
15:26 < jessta> BrowserUk: yeah, I pretty much don't care what the formating
is as long as it's consistent
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15:40 < BrowserUk> jessta: I'd make a slight proviso to that.  Consistently
bad doesn't cut it :) But yes.  I have my preferences, but so long as the
formatting is relatively sane and consistent, I can get used to it.
15:41 < jessta> bad can be very subjective
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17:43 < BrowserUk> Well, you know it doesn't work out that way.
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17:44 < Namegduf> Right, because the lines stay short, mostly, and the space
stays mostly wasted.
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17:45 < BrowserUk> Most of my lines come in well under 72 chars, but I do
see some horrible messes created by people breaking lines up and reducing
indentation levels in order to comply with some long lost arbitrary limit.
17:45 < Namegduf> You keep introducing "long lost", but it clearly *isn't*
long lost.
17:45 < ampleyfly> I can't read too compact code, it needs some short lines
and spacing
17:46 < BrowserUk> It originates from 72 posityion puch cards...and they are
long lost/
17:46 < BrowserUk> *punch
17:46 < Namegduf> Yes, they are- but that doesn't really matter.
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17:47 < BrowserUk> 'K.  Done.
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18:03 < anschelsc> why does len() return an int and not an uint?
18:04 < anschelsc> i really can't see the rationale for that
18:04 < anschelsc> anyone?
18:05 < ampleyfly> sounds like a good question to me, maybe uints just
aren't used so much
18:05 < jessta> there probably isn't a reason, but it doesn't really matter
18:06 <+iant> it's a tradeoff
18:06 <+iant> uint gives more range but has weird behaviour around zero
18:06 <+iant> int has predictable behaviour around zero but cuts the maximum
size of an object in half
18:06 < anschelsc> but when would you ever want negative len?
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18:07 <+iant> when you say if for i := 0; i < len(x) - 1; i++
18:07 <+iant> which is another readon for why len returns int in Go, because
there is no automatic type conversion
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18:07 < braddunbar> iant: huh, not a bad use case...
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18:08 < anschelsc> iant: that loop will never run though...
18:08 < anschelsc> oops
18:08 < anschelsc> yes it will, sorry
18:09 < exch> the -1 isn't needed though
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18:09 < exch> unless you want to skip the last element
18:09 <+iant> right, that is the case in question
18:10 <+iant> of course you can make it work when using uint, but you do
have to remember that there is weird behaviour around zero
18:10 <+iant> it's a tradeoff
18:11 < anschelsc> it just seems irrational to make a function which will
never return negative numbers return an int
18:11 < kmeyer> iant: great example and explanation, thanks :)
18:12 < kmeyer> anschelsc: is the difference between 2 billion and 4 billion
max elements that huge to you?
18:13 < ampleyfly> I think anschelsc is more concerned with it being an int
because it looks like it could return -1
18:13 < anschelsc> thank you ampleyfly
18:13 < kmeyer> Ah.
18:13 < anschelsc> it would seem that at least part of the point of uint is
as a sanity check
18:14 < anschelsc> i don't want my function to accept negative parameters
18:14 < anschelsc> because they are meaningless
18:14 < anschelsc> but I don't want to do lots of conversions either
18:15 <+iant> func (p mytype) Ulen() uint { return uint(len(p)) }
18:16 < exch> if they change len() to return uint, then every for loop we
write will need an explicit cast of i: for i := uint(0); ...  {} Which is less
desirable still I think
18:16 < anschelsc> perhaps exch
18:17 < anschelsc> iant: I can't make something like that to work on every
kind of slice tho can I?
18:18 <+iant> anschelsc: well, you would have to write that method for every
type you care about; I admit it's hardly convenient in general
18:21 < anschelsc> as long as I'm ranting, if len were a method then I could
use an interface for this...
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21:28 < Freejack> Learning about goroutines.  Are those strictly
Asynchronous or can they be used as Synchronous threads also(like in Esterel)?
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21:31 < Discoloda> channels are the primary syncing mechanism
21:31 <+iant> there is no way to explicitly say that different goroutines
are synchronous, but you can use channels to effectively make them synchronous
21:32 * Freejack nods
21:32 < Ginto8> Buffered channels allow asynchronous goroutines though
21:33 < Ginto8> so if you want communication asynchronously, buffer your
channels
21:33 < Freejack> I'm thinking in terms of deterministic execution.  State
Machines, Reactive Threads, etc...
21:35 < Ginto8> yeah just use an unbuffered channel and it will wait until
something is sent
21:36 < Freejack> Gotcha.
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21:38 < Ginto8> <-ch with a normal channel pretty much just hangs until
something arrives
21:38 < Freejack> Figuring out how to create a tree structure where each
node self sorts, without deadlocking.
21:38 < Ginto8> sounds tough
21:40 < Freejack> Previously I was doing everything Asynchronously.  Seems
like Synchronous execution might be the answer.
21:40 < Ginto8> yeah and you can also set up a "quit" channel (it can be
buffered or unbuffered)
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21:40 < Ginto8> if it's unbuffered, you'd either do ok := <-quit or have
<-quit in a select statement
21:41 < Freejack> Hrrrmmm..a "quit" channel?  Sort of like a "bit bucket"
for the tree?
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21:43 < Ginto8> well if you send something on a certain goroutine's quit
channel, that goroutine will return
21:43 * Freejack nods
21:43 < Freejack> Gotcha.
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21:45 < Ginto8> at least that's idiomatic ;)
21:46 < Freejack> I've got two approaches lined up so far.  The first is
where each node is an active "object" the second where the tree is subdivided into
active subtrees(probably the more conventional approach.).
21:46 < Ginto8> well subtrees spawning sub-goroutines should be ok
21:46 < Ginto8> actually
21:47 < Ginto8> you could have a goroutine spawn a goroutine that spawns
goroutines
21:47 < Ginto8> until everything is automatically sorting
21:47 < Ginto8> though you might want to have it sort on a certain time
period
21:47 < Ginto8> (like using a time.Ticker)
21:48 < Freejack> True.  But were not dealing with infinite resources.
There should be hard limit to how many threads should be active at any one time.
21:48 < Ginto8> well
21:48 < Ginto8> you could pause threads that you don't want running
21:48 * Freejack nods
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21:49 < Ginto8> or like you said before, deterministic execution
21:49 < Ginto8> but you could do that based on a certain timeline
21:49 < Freejack> Good point.
21:49 < Ginto8> sort n nodes every x seconds
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21:49 < Ginto8> and time.Tickers are very useful for that
21:50 < Ginto8> For example, I am creating a graphics engine for a video
game, and I want it to render a certain amount of times per second, and no more
21:50 < Ginto8> I use a time.Ticker to keep it limited to that
21:50 < ender2070> Tonnerre - got a nasty email from a mono booster, lol
21:52 < Tonnerre> ender2070, huh?
21:54 < ender2070> he didnt like that i was going to try getting go into
fedora officially
21:54 < Tonnerre> Why not?  Because Mono is so much more lock-in?
21:54 < kmeyer> Anyone taken a look at Tonika yet?
21:54 < ender2070> chasing tailights :)
21:55 < Freejack> Grrr....cant get gccgo to compile.
21:56 < Ginto8> Freejack: just use 8/6g
21:56 < Freejack> Ginto8: I will when it supports shared libs.
21:56 < Ginto8> it has better concurrency, and creates code faster and
nearly as high-quality as gccgo
21:56 < Ginto8> why do you need shared libs?
21:57 <+iant> Freejack: which platform are you building gccgo for?
21:57 < Freejack> Ginto8: So that I'm not statically linking in Xlib.
OpenGL, etc...  and producing 100 megabyte executable.
21:57 < Ginto8> Freejack, any C libraries are dynamically linked via cgo
21:58 < Ginto8> it's just that go code can't be dynamically linked
21:58 < Ginto8> C code can be
21:59 < Ginto8> last time I built my app, which interfaces to SDL,
SDL_image, GL and GLU (not a small size total), it came out to 814 KB
22:00 < sladegen> and what does ldd say?
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22:00 < Ginto8> and I also had a good amount of my own code in there, so C
libs don't create a size issue
22:00 < Freejack> Alright.  I'll take a look at it.
22:01 < Ginto8> sladegen: it's only saying that it's linked to the .so
created by cgo
22:01 < Ginto8> but that's because the .so links in the C libs
22:02 < Freejack> Also, am I stuck with the default garbage collector, or
can I turn that off and use Storage Pools instead?
22:02 < sladegen> oook...
22:03 < Freejack> You know, map a fixed size storage pool to ramfs or Posix
shared mem?
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22:04 < Freejack> No GC involved.
22:04 < sladegen> SOL
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22:08 < Freejack> This is enough to get me started.  Got the 6g compiler
working fine.
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22:08 < Freejack> Time to go do some coding.  Laters.
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23:38 < plexdev> http://is.gd/cfgQ2 by [Kyle Consalus] in
go/src/pkg/strconv/ -- Trivial optimization.
23:38 < plexdev> http://is.gd/cfgQ8 by [Robert Griesemer] in go/src/pkg/big/
-- big: bug fix for division
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23:44 < mxweas> anyone in here at I/O right now?
23:44 < mxweas> just saw this channel in his presentation lol
23:44 < jesusaurus> I/O?
23:44 < mxweas> Google I/O
23:45 < mxweas> Google developer conference in San Francisco
23:45 < jesusaurus> ah, cool, I wish I was there...
23:46 < Tonnerre> I'm not there :/
23:46 < Ginto8> I wish I was there too...
23:46 < Ginto8> I presume you are?
23:46 * mxweas feels like a buzz kill now :P
23:46 < mxweas> yeah
23:46 < mxweas> They're having preliminary presentations introducing new
things
23:47 < mxweas> I didnt get a pass, snuck into the Go programming language
session
23:47 < mxweas> looks cool.
23:47 < Namegduf> XD
23:47 < mxweas> Like a python version of c, with some functional programming
language concepts thrown in
23:47 < mxweas> c++ *
23:47 < Namegduf> You should go back to watching the presentation
23:47 < Ginto8> yep
23:47 < Ginto8> well more like C
23:47 < jesusaurus> its more like c than c++
23:47 < Ginto8> with methods
23:48 < Namegduf> It's not really got any C++ in it
23:48 < Tonnerre> "C with classes" :D
23:48 < mxweas> :P
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23:48 < mxweas> Objective-C then?
23:48 < mxweas> lol
23:48 < Tonnerre> mxweas, nah
23:48 < Namegduf> No, Go does not have classes
23:48 < Ginto8> no it's C with better structs
23:48 < mxweas> with methods and instance variables split up
23:48 < mxweas> yeah
23:48 < Tonnerre> C with Classes was the old working name for C++
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23:48 < Namegduf> It isn't OO-orientated or objective at all.  :P
23:48 < mxweas> yeah
23:48 < mxweas> it looks like you define structs, then functions that are
typed to the structs
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23:49 < Ginto8> Namegduf: not in the traditional sense, but you can simulate
a sorta-inheritance =P
23:49 < jesusaurus> well whats the difference between structs with methods
and classes?
23:49 < Namegduf> Ginto8: Not at all
23:49 < Ginto8> unnamed member vars
23:49 < mxweas> and then providing interfaces for functions that are
accessed the same yet have different implementations
23:49 < Namegduf> Ginto8: It isn't OO because it isn't designed for OO
design methods
23:49 < Ginto8> well yes
23:49 < mxweas> I like the concurrency stuff
23:50 < Ginto8> but it can do a number of things with similar functionality
23:50 < mxweas> that and some of the syntax / typing is what made me think
of haskell
23:50 < Ginto8> but the "OO design methods" mainly exist because of the
current languages that implement OO
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23:50 < Ginto8> Go could be seen simply as a very new look at how OO should
work
23:51 < mxweas> Anything I should ask the Go presenter?
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23:51 < jesusaurus> i think its the concept of channels that make go so
useful
23:51 < Ginto8> the concurrency is a major up-side
23:51 < mxweas> he covered that
23:52 < Namegduf> Ginto8: You could view it, also, as a bowl of fruit
23:52 < Ginto8> Namegduf, you have a point, but you'd have to be crazy
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23:53 < Ginto8> I think our problem is asynchronous definitions of OO
23:53 < Namegduf> You mean "different" definitions
23:53 < Namegduf> asynchronous does not mean desynchronised
23:54 < Ginto8> damn my concurrency pun failed
23:54 < Namegduf> XD
23:54 < Ginto8> w/e
23:54 < Ginto8> we just have a little data corruption in the shared memory
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23:55 < Abalabab> Can i talk now?
23:55 < Abalabab> yey
23:55 < Abalabab> i got banned, or something?
23:55 < Namegduf> You can't speak if you are not logged into a registered
account.
23:55 < Abalabab> oh right
23:55 < Abalabab> sorry
23:56 < Abalabab> I was gonna say, i wish i were at google I/O, but i have
exams tomorrow, heh
23:56 < xorl> :)
23:57 < Abalabab> yet im programing and playing Reach, whoops :D
--- Log closed Wed May 19 00:00:58 2010