--- Log opened Fri Nov 26 00:00:19 2010
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02:18 < plexdev> http://is.gd/hNsEi by [Mathieu Lonjaret] in
go/src/pkg/compress/flate/ -- compress/flate: fix typo in comment.
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08:08 < balance> ?
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08:15 < wrtp> alexis: i don't know if anyone has pointed this out to you in
the meantime, but string(theCharacter) works and is considerably more efficient
than using fmt.Sprintf
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08:31 < wrtp> can anyone access the go issue tracker currently?
08:31 < wrtp> or is it just me?
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09:03 < mpl> wrtp: if this
http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=f1939161b11a is part of the go issue
tracker, then no problem for me here.
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09:13 < wrtp> mpl: oh, it's working for me now
09:13 < wrtp> and i find that i've uploaded an issue twice
09:13 < wrtp> i hate that
09:14 < mpl> yeah, I've had trouble with the codereviews myself, I find it
all a bit clunky.
09:40 < wrtp> it could at least try to detect duplicate form submission
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11:48 < nsf> we really need to do something about string/char[] stuff
11:48 < nsf> []char I mean
11:49 < nsf> is it possible to read data from a file to a string?  without
converting it from []byte
11:49 < nsf> yeah, I meant []byte :D
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11:59 < nsf> but I guess it is possible to remove certain copies when doing
[]byte -> string conversion
11:59 < nsf> compiler will really need to do more analysis in future
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12:38 < wrtp> nsf: is it a big overhead?
12:38 < nsf> it depends
12:39 < nsf> if []byte is big enough, then yes
12:39 < nsf> also it adds unnecessary memory overhead and pressure on the GC
12:40 < wrtp> it's true that the compiler could optimise for the case where
the []byte is local and is converted to string.
12:40 < nsf> yes, that's what I'm talking about
12:40 < wrtp> but i wonder if that's true in any significant percentage of
cases
12:40 < nsf> in fact it can do that even for non-local []byte
12:40 < wrtp> e.g.  it's not true of bufio
12:40 < wrtp> really?
12:40 < nsf> but it requires inter-procedural analysis
12:40 < nsf> yes
12:41 < nsf> let's say ioutil.ReadFile
12:41 < nsf> it returns []byte
12:41 < nsf> and it is not referenced anywhere
12:41 < nsf> we can safely convert that to string
12:41 < wrtp> ok, i guess i meant "unescaped"
12:41 < wrtp> or something
12:41 < wrtp> similar to the way that the compiler could avoid mallocs
12:41 < nsf> well, yes, it is sort of "unescaped" value returned from a
function
12:42 < nsf> yes
12:42 < nsf> but it's all about analysis and making annotations
12:42 < nsf> compiler should be able to do that at some point
12:42 < nsf> even if it's worth only 10-20% of improvement in performance
12:43 < nsf> but as you've pointed out, it's also a great help for the GC
12:43 < wrtp> if the []byte is a possible candidate for stack-allocation,
then converting to string could be done directly with no copy, as long as the
[]byte is not written later
12:43 < nsf> it will be able to manage memory more efficiently
12:44 < wrtp> it's quite nice knowing that such optimisations are possible
in principle in a future version of go.  things can get quite a lot faster.
12:44 < nsf> it is possible no just for stack-allocations
12:44 < nsf> but for heap allocs as well
12:44 < nsf> because Go controls the memory anyway
12:44 < nsf> all we need to do is to proof certain things:
12:45 < nsf> 1.  []byte hasn't escaped the current function
12:45 < nsf> 2.  it is not written later
12:45 < wrtp> well, you wouldn't allocate slices on the stack anyway (unless
you statically knew their size)
12:45 < nsf> at that point we can safely convert it to string
12:45 < nsf> wrtp: yes, proper escape analysis simply enables other form of
optimization
12:45 < nsf> it returns the usage of arrays
12:46 < nsf> as temporary stack-based objects
12:46 < nsf> because as it was noticed before, currenty they are quite
useless, because you can't pass a slice of that array to other function
12:46 < wrtp> there's one slight rub - string(data[n:m]) currently only
allocates m-n bytes.  if the optimisation was applied, it could keep a reference
to the whole byte slice which might be big
12:47 < nsf> it's true, well there are two solutions to that problem
12:48 < nsf> 1.  heuristic in the compiler: let's say if we're taking a
slice which is smaller than the half of the array we do the copy
12:48 < wrtp> gotta go - be back in an hour
12:48 < nsf> althouth I'm not sure how it will look like
12:48 < nsf> because it can be done in runtime only
12:48 < nsf> 2.  give it to a programmer, let him decide
12:48 < nsf> (2) is a C-like approach
12:48 < nsf> where programmer is the master
12:49 < nsf> in Go it's a bit different :D
12:49 < nsf> compiler and the Go itself is sort of a master as well
12:49 < nsf> which should help the programmer
12:52 < nsf> wrtp: well, in general yes, it's good to know that
optimizations are possible and they are quite nice and sophisticated
12:54 < nsf> hehe, and I think we can simply let the compiler to generate
copies
12:54 < nsf> in this case: string(data[n:m])
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12:54 < nsf> but if the case is: string(data)
12:55 < nsf> it should consider doing analysis
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15:26 < wrtp> nsf: one problem with sophisticated optimisation is that it
can be quite fragile - change a small aspect of the code (e.g.  to send something
to a log file), and you lose the optimisation
15:27 < nsf> sending to a log file shouldn't trigger escaping
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15:28 < nsf> if it's a buffered i/o, then the data is just copied..
otherwise compiler should know that 'write' syscall takes an address of data and
doesn't store it anywhere
15:28 < nsf> but yeah, your point is valid
15:28 < nsf> the same thing is happened with a lot of java developers
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15:29 < nsf> because the way they achieve performance is by doing
implementation-specific hacks
15:29 < wrtp> yeah
15:29 < nsf> and once the implementation is changed (let's say totally new
GC)
15:29 < nsf> everything is broken
15:29 < wrtp> ...  or at least, very slow!
15:29 < nsf> well, I meant that by "broken"
15:30 < nsf> because the whole point of optimization is being fast
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15:31 < nsf> so, definitely implementation specific hacks should be
discouraged
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15:32 < nsf> the key point here that such kind of optimizations work in
languages like C, because everything is in control of the programmer
15:32 < nsf> in Go it's a bit different
15:32 < nsf> and I'm not sure how can we prevent this
15:33 < wrtp> i'm not sure there's that much difference between C and Go in
this respect
15:33 < nsf> in Go the compiler/runtime is responsible for managing memory
for example
15:34 < nsf> and for providing memory-safety
15:34 < nsf> it's a big deal
15:34 < nsf> if you're cheating in these areas you're against the compiler
15:34 < nsf> in C you're the master, compiler just does what you say
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15:35 < nsf> and I think this is exactly the area
15:35 < nsf> where compiler should do its optimizations
15:35 < nsf> but the problem is still here
15:36 < nsf> people will do impl dependent hacks
15:36 < nsf> I don't know is it evil or not
15:36 < nsf> a managed high performance environment is new to me
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15:46 < wrtp> nsf: in a way, Go is *more* amenable to optimisation than C,
because the compiler can do more out of the program's sight.
15:47 < nsf> yes
15:47 < nsf> but the thing here, is than in C the programmer is responsible
for doing these optimizations
15:48 < nsf> in Go compiler should be better at this
15:48 < nsf> it's like dynamic languages vs static low level languages
15:49 < nsf> the complexity of the compiler is directly proportional to the
level of the language
15:50 < nsf> dynamic language compilers/interpreters have to do JIT
compilation technology in order to be fast
15:50 < nsf> which is quite complex
15:50 < nsf> Go is somewhat in the middle
15:50 < nsf> but still a lot of stuff should be done in the compiler
15:51 < nsf> anyway, it's all just talks
15:51 < nsf> the roadmap is quite straight :)
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16:07 < soapy_illusions> Hi, I was wondering is there an easy in Go to
monitor a file for modifications (I want to build a live log parser, in Go)
16:07 < nsf> in linux you can use inotify
16:07 < nsf> there were bindings or something like that for Go
16:09 < soapy_illusions> thanks a lot, (it is all in linux) so I will give
that a look
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16:12 < soapy_illusions> I found a mention of it in a google groups
discussion, but the documentation for the os package has no information about
inotify (sorry if I am completely missing it)
16:14 < nsf> well, you're not missing it
16:14 < nsf> although I thought there is a 3rd party package somewhere
16:15 < nsf>
http://groups.google.com/group/golang-nuts/browse_thread/thread/703e5ae1b066e007/88cdb84391e59623
16:15 < nsf> here is one of them
16:15 < nsf> http://www.vossnet.org/inotify-for-go.zip
16:15 < nsf> direct link
16:17 < soapy_illusions> thanks a lot, (currently contemplating go for the
tool I want to build)
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20:01 !zelazny.freenode.net [freenode-info] why register and identify?  your IRC
nick is how people know you.  http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
20:01 < Tv> queue <- Task{Fn: func() {routine(par1, par2), Priority: 30}
20:01 < CodeWar> assuming func() is what does the enqueue
20:01 < Tv> CodeWar: you'd do well to step back and read the tutorial..
20:02 < CodeWar> let me do that I have a set of use cases in mind ..  and I
m skimming over Scala Go and F# to see what brings me closest thanks for the
inputs
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 27 00:00:35 2010