--- Log opened Thu Jul 14 00:00:56 2011 00:03 -!- lucian [~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:13 < skelterjohn> i didn't think you could access unexported fields with reflect 00:15 -!- ijknacho [~goofy@71.123.134.24] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:15 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 00:16 -!- ijknacho [~goofy@71.123.134.24] has joined #go-nuts 00:19 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:23 -!- ccc1 [~Adium@140.109.98.187] has joined #go-nuts 00:25 -!- rael_wiki [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/rael-wiki/x-8420294] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 8.0a1/20110713030741]] 00:26 -!- gridaphobe [~gridaphob@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:30 -!- bugQ [~bug@c-71-195-207-34.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:36 -!- miker2 [~miker2@pool-108-16-20-28.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:36 -!- pjjw [klang@68.64.241.250] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 00:38 -!- squeese [~squeese@cm-84.209.17.156.getinternet.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:42 -!- brad_ [~brad@cpe-098-026-120-155.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:46 -!- iant1 [~iant@67.218.103.165] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 00:47 -!- brad_ [~brad@cpe-098-026-120-155.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 00:51 -!- nteon_ [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 00:55 -!- tvw [~tv@e176001222.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 00:55 -!- tvw [~tv@e176002066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 01:03 -!- chomp [~chomp@c-67-186-35-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:03 -!- kergoth [~kergoth@ip24-251-173-232.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:06 < kergoth> what's the rule of thumb on when to pass by value? I'm sure slices, etc are, since they're pointer types anyway, but beyond that.. 01:10 < brandini> jessta_: I know this is greatly delayed, but I'm looking for things like middleware, decorators on requests, validators, ORM, etc :) 01:10 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@nat/google/x-aljfuluviyurhalz] has joined #go-nuts 01:11 < str1ngs> kergoth: there is no rule of the per se , but generally I use structs as pointers, strings,slices as values 01:11 < brandini> in a web framework :) 01:11 -!- dRbiG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has joined #go-nuts 01:11 -!- d2biG [p@bofh.edu.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 01:12 -!- jimbaker` [~jbaker@c-71-237-98-166.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:12 < str1ngs> kergoth: fd's as pointers also. if you look at the stdlib you get a good idea of when and where 01:13 < kergoth> ah, good idea, will have to read some more of the packages 01:13 < str1ngs> http package might be a good one.. let me check for some examples 01:13 < str1ngs> hmm wait that packages is large 01:14 -!- jimbaker [~jbaker@canonical/jimbaker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:16 < str1ngs> best to use godoc to look through probably 01:16 * kergoth nods, will do 01:16 < str1ngs> func NewRequest(method, url string, body io.Reader) (*Request, os.Error 01:16 -!- Tv__ [~Tv__@cpe-76-168-227-45.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 01:17 < str1ngs> good example everthing is values the new Request is a pointer 01:17 < kergoth> concepts were easy enough, just not 100% on the most idiomatic ways of doing things yet 01:18 < str1ngs> func (c *Client) Do(req *Request) (resp *Response, err os.Error) 01:18 < str1ngs> another example again the Request struct is a pointer 01:20 < str1ngs> obviously there are times you want to pass a string pointer instead of a vaule. say you want to mutate it in place 01:20 < str1ngs> ie Sscanf does this 01:29 < jessta_> kergoth: everything is "pass by value", but sometimes that value is a pointer or contains a pointer 01:30 < brandini> jessta_! 01:36 -!- meling [~meling@12.238.254.29] has joined #go-nuts 01:39 < brandini> skeered him 01:46 -!- rcrowley [~rcrowley@c-71-202-44-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 01:52 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-3-218.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:54 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-3-218.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 01:56 -!- franciscosouza_ [~francisco@187.105.25.184] has joined #go-nuts 01:56 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@187.105.25.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:57 -!- sunfmin [~sunfmin@115.238.44.107] has joined #go-nuts 01:57 -!- kergoth [~kergoth@ip24-251-173-232.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:59 -!- tvw [~tv@e176002066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:03 -!- smw [~stephen@pool-108-0-251-119.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:03 -!- smw [~stephen@pool-108-0-251-119.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Changing host] 02:03 -!- smw [~stephen@unaffiliated/smw] has joined #go-nuts 02:06 -!- kergoth [~kergoth@ip24-251-173-232.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:07 -!- muke [~doobies@75-59-237-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:08 -!- muke [~doobies@75-59-237-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 02:20 -!- chadkouse [~Adium@rrcs-74-218-87-242.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 02:26 -!- miker2 [~miker2@pool-108-16-20-28.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 02:29 < jessta_> brandini: 'middleware' is rather vaugue 02:32 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@183.47.234.5] has joined #go-nuts 02:33 -!- pjjw [klang@68.64.241.250] has joined #go-nuts 02:41 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 02:43 -!- mjml [~joya@174.3.227.184] has joined #go-nuts 02:54 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-bmghsnfscbivglkh] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:01 -!- x3n0n [6172174d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.114.23.77] has joined #go-nuts 03:01 < brandini> jessta_: when I think of middleware I think of checking cookies, logging, templating etc 03:05 -!- dario_ [~dario@domina.zerties.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 03:05 -!- magn3ts [~magn3ts@ip68-103-225-65.ks.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 03:05 < x3n0n> do people know a better way to phrase this loop: https://gist.github.com/1081869 03:07 < x3n0n> I'd prefer something like (c-style): "for a := initial(); a = modify(a), a > 0; { doStuffBasedOn(a); }" 03:08 < Tekerson> wouldn't `for tail := len(s); tail = strings.LastIndexAny(s[0:tail], "\"\\"); tail < 0 { s = s[0:tail] + "\\" + s[tail:] } ` work? or am I missing something? 03:09 < Tekerson> err.. wrong order 03:09 < x3n0n> isn't the 3rd "for" clause the "step" statement? 03:09 < Tekerson> pretty sure it's the same as C 03:09 < x3n0n> sorry--had typed that before you sent 03:10 < x3n0n> almost works...but I don't want an "s =" to happen until I do the first "LastIndexAny" 03:11 < x3n0n> I could duplicate the "LastIndexAny": 03:12 -!- magn3ts [~magn3ts@ip68-103-225-65.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:12 -!- dario [~dario@domina.zerties.org] has joined #go-nuts 03:12 < x3n0n> `for tail := LastIndexAny(s, escapes); tail >= 0; tail = LastIndexAny(s[0:tail], escapes) { s = s[0:tail] + "\\" + s[tail:] }` 03:13 < x3n0n> just feels icky to repeat "LastIndexAny" 03:13 < x3n0n> since they're conceptually the same operation 03:13 < Tekerson> does `for tail := len(s); tail >= 0;; { s = s[0:tail] + "\\" + s[tail:]; tail = strings.LastIndexAny(s[0:tail], "\"\\") }` work? never tried it, but seems reasonable :) 03:14 -!- jimbaker [~jbaker@c-71-237-98-166.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Changing host] 03:14 -!- jimbaker [~jbaker@canonical/jimbaker] has joined #go-nuts 03:14 < Tekerson> (ie. empty 3rd statement) 03:14 < x3n0n> all except for the "don't insert a backslash until you find the first character worth escaping" 03:15 < x3n0n> rephrased: "insert a backslash before the last un-escaped character worth escaping"...and your most recent will insert a "rogue" backslash 03:16 < x3n0n> I suppose I could just un-backslash... :) 03:16 < Tekerson> meh, I'd just go with the original. It's a pretty standard loop and a half problem. 03:17 < Tekerson> http://www.cs.duke.edu/~ola/patterns/plopd/loops.html#loop-and-a-half 03:18 < x3n0n> hadn't read that particular description before. Ok--thanks for the advice. 03:19 < x3n0n> off to bed 03:20 -!- x3n0n [6172174d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.97.114.23.77] has left #go-nuts [] 03:49 -!- kizzo [~kizzo@c-24-130-55-180.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 03:49 -!- angasule [~angasule@190.2.33.49] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 03:55 < kizzo> I get "_testmain.go:3: imported and not used: /home/kizzo/work/gotest/_test/main" when trying to run "gotest" 03:58 < kizzo> The test file is here: http://pastebin.com/N990aatJ 03:58 < kizzo> I also get "_testmain.go:9: undefined: numbers" 04:02 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:04 < ijknacho> kizzo: where is Double defined? 04:04 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Disconnected by services] 04:04 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has joined #go-nuts 04:05 < ijknacho> I don't see it in your pastebin 04:05 < kizzo> In a file called numbers/hello.go 04:05 < ijknacho> what's your makefile look like? 04:06 < kizzo> All that's in there is "package numbers", and "func Double(i int) int { return i * 2 } 04:06 < kizzo> I'll post that.. 04:06 < str1ngs> kizzo: is this a package or a command? 04:06 < kizzo> http://pastebin.com/wZSLU7us 04:07 < kizzo> str1ngs: It's the command - I am running "gotest" on the command line. 04:07 < str1ngs> no the project it's self 04:08 < kizzo> All of this is contained in a directory called "gotest" 04:08 < str1ngs> seems to me , you want numbers_test.go in ./numbers 04:08 < str1ngs> then run gotest in numbers 04:08 < ijknacho> str1ngs: he's including Make.cmd. i've only done gotest with packages, so I don't know what's wrong. 04:09 < str1ngs> ijknacho: ya kinda explaining that 04:09 < str1ngs> you can us go_test with cmds but its not really supported 04:09 < str1ngs> err gotest 04:10 < kizzo> Hmm.. 04:10 < str1ngs> move all numbers package related files to numbers 04:10 < kizzo> I moved numbers_test.go to ./numbers, and then cd to ./numbers and ran "gotest" there, and things look better. 04:10 < str1ngs> ok so... 04:10 < str1ngs> you can make a Makfile target 04:10 < str1ngs> test: \n 04:10 < kizzo> The output is "gotest: no test files found: no match for "[^.]*_test.go"" 04:11 < kizzo> Alrighty.. 04:11 < str1ngs> I'll have to explain the makefile target better 04:11 < str1ngs> so numbers is fixed now? 04:12 < kizzo> Oh I'm sorry - that was not the correct output. That was the output of running "gotest" in the top-level directory. 04:12 < kizzo> Running it in the ./numbers directory gives: "gotest: please create a Makefile for gotest; see http://golang.org/doc/code.htm for details" 04:12 < str1ngs> ok, so instead make a makefile target to handle do the gotest 04:13 < str1ngs> let me make an example ... 04:13 -!- Dr_Who [~tgall_foo@linaro/tgall-foo] has quit [Quit: ZZZZZzzzzz] 04:13 < kizzo> "test: numbers_test.go\n\tgotest numbers_test.go" ? 04:13 < kizzo> [ something like that?.. ] 04:13 < kizzo> [ trying things... ] 04:14 < str1ngs> https://gist.github.com/0aefd2e6bdf34c99343d 04:14 < str1ngs> then you can test with make test 04:15 < str1ngs> $ make test 04:15 < str1ngs> oops change ./xbps to ./numbers 04:16 < str1ngs> you could in theory use another Makefile in numbers. but this way you avoid a Makefile 04:17 < str1ngs> if you have a Makefile in ./numbers already let me know and I'll adjust this 04:19 < kizzo> None of this seems to be mentioned at either http://golang.org/doc/code.html or http://golang.org/cmd/gotest/ 04:19 < kizzo> Hmm I'll work with all of this a bit.. 04:20 < str1ngs> kizzo: do you have a Makefile in ./numbers already? 04:21 < kizzo> No I don't. 04:21 < str1ngs> ok so my first method probably be the best 04:22 < kizzo> None of this seems to be working - typing "gotest" from the top directory gives "gotest: no test files found: no match for "[^.]*_test.go"" 04:22 < str1ngs> yes use make test 04:22 < str1ngs> gotest does not work on command packages. only packages 04:22 < kizzo> Running "make test" just gives "gotest: please create a Makefile for gotest; see http://golang.org/doc/.." 04:23 < str1ngs> so make a Makefile for ./numbers 04:23 < str1ngs> http://golang.org/doc/code.html has a template 04:24 < str1ngs> if you have a Makefile then I can adjust the top level Makefile to better suit it 04:27 < kizzo> Sorry - I can't figure out what should go in numbers/Makefile. 04:27 < kizzo> [ getting pizza out the oven.. ] 04:28 < kizzo> It has GOFILES=hello.go\duh.go in it. 04:28 < str1ngs> kizzo: see http://golang.org/doc/code.html#tmp_33 Outside the Go source tree (for personal packages), the standard form is 04:28 < kizzo> [ along with the top and bottom includes ] 04:29 < str1ngs> paste the Makefile please 04:30 < kizzo> numbers/Makefile: http://pastebin.com/ryFYDM4Z 04:30 < str1ngs> Make.cmd should be Make.pkg for package Makefile 04:31 < str1ngs> after that fix you can use make test in ./numbers and it should just work 04:31 < str1ngs> in order to test it from top level we need to tweak the test: target slighty 04:31 < str1ngs> ... I'll revise it 04:31 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-146-93.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 04:32 < str1ngs> https://gist.github.com/0aefd2e6bdf34c99343d revised version 04:35 < kizzo> Running "make test" in ./numbers gives me: /home/kizzo/go/src/Make.pkg:24: *** first argument to `word' function must be greater than 0. Stop. 04:35 -!- anon232323 [~jordanp@c-98-218-69-170.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:35 < kizzo> I will repost the project Makefile and numbers/Makefile just to be sure.. 04:35 -!- serialhex [~quassel@99-101-148-183.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 04:35 < str1ngs> duh.go\ remove trailing \ 04:36 -!- telexicon [~telexicon@unaffiliated/chowmeined] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 04:36 -!- serialhex [~quassel@99-101-148-183.lightspeed.wepbfl.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:38 < kizzo> Both Makefiles: http://pastebin.com/wPf13tXc 04:39 < str1ngs> Gofiles is wrong for the cmd package 04:39 < str1ngs> and you have a trailing numbers/hello.go\ 04:40 -!- iant [~iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #go-nuts 04:40 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 04:40 < str1ngs> in fact you probably dont even need the cmd package 04:40 < kizzo> I removed the trailing \ from the first Makefile. 04:40 -!- zozoR [~Morten@2906ds2-arno.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #go-nuts 04:41 < str1ngs> yes but you have no files there for a cmd package so .. why do you need the cmd package? 04:41 < str1ngs> just use number dir. and its make file 04:42 < kizzo> I am not sure of what you're referring to when you say "cmd/command package" - I am trying to create a package, yes (and not just compile 1 or 2 source files). 04:43 < str1ngs> cmd packages != package 04:43 -!- anon232323 [~jordanp@c-98-218-69-170.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: anon232323] 04:43 < str1ngs> the then to use packages. you cant use gotest with time 04:43 < str1ngs> so.... remove that aspect 04:44 < str1ngs> just interact with gotest/numbers directly 04:44 < str1ngs> and gotest probably bad name for top level dir but w/e 04:44 < kizzo> True. 04:44 < str1ngs> you can probably move numbers to be gotest . and leave it at that. but I dont know your hiearchy here 04:48 < kizzo> I think I will try again some other time - thanks for the help. 04:49 < str1ngs> kizzo: just use the numbers directory. forget about the gotest directory 04:49 < str1ngs> kizzo: thats all you need to fix here. 04:49 < str1ngs> kizzo: if you have having a problem with the Makefile in numbers just paste the error 04:50 < kizzo> "gotest" is the top-level directory, which contains "numbers" and everything else. So you probably mean rename "gotest" to something else - I'll change it to "ramble" 04:50 -!- mikespook [~mikespook@183.47.234.5] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 04:51 < str1ngs> kizzo: ignore that for now. just interact with numbers directory 04:51 < str1ngs> if you want to test it just cd into and either run gotest or make test . they do the samething 04:52 < str1ngs> if you have errors paste them 04:53 < kizzo> Ok, running "make test" in "ramble/numbers" gives "/home/kizzo/go/src/Make.pkg:24: *** first argument to `word' function must be greater than 0. Stop." 04:54 < kizzo> Changing the last "Make.pkg" to "Make.cmd" gives something else.. 04:54 < str1ngs> Make.cmd is for commands not used for packages 04:54 < str1ngs> Make.pkg is used fro packages. they are no interchangeable 04:55 < str1ngs> 6g -V 04:55 < str1ngs> replace with your compiler of course 04:55 < kizzo> 8g version release.r58.1 8739 04:56 < kizzo> Ok, I'm trying to make a package so I left it as Make.pkg 04:56 < str1ngs> re paste just your numbers/Makefile please 04:57 < kizzo> http://pastebin.com/wuj0zG44 04:58 -!- Tv__ [~Tv__@cpe-76-168-227-45.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 04:58 < str1ngs> change GOFILES to GOFILES=hello.go duh.go 04:58 < str1ngs> \ is overkill here 04:58 < str1ngs> still seems right but check anyways 04:59 < kizzo> Alrighty.. 04:59 < str1ngs> after that paste *full* output of make test 05:00 -!- elimisteve [~elimistev@ec2-50-16-219-29.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #go-nuts 05:00 -!- elimisteve [~elimistev@ec2-50-16-219-29.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #go-nuts [] 05:00 < kizzo> http://pastebin.com/wrHNqCBr 05:00 < str1ngs> make --version 05:01 < kizzo> I updated the post with the Makefile contents as well. 05:01 < kizzo> GNU Make 3.81 05:02 < str1ngs> hmmm 05:04 < str1ngs> and $ gotest ? 05:04 -!- fabled [~fabled@83.145.235.194] has joined #go-nuts 05:05 < str1ngs> ahl... 05:05 -!- iant [~iant@adsl-71-133-8-30.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 05:06 < kizzo> http://pastebin.com/8Ar9Q2zL, with updated output 05:06 < str1ngs> you need to add TARG=numbers before GOFILES 05:06 -!- iant [~iant@216.239.45.130] has joined #go-nuts 05:06 -!- mode/#go-nuts [+v iant] by ChanServ 05:06 < str1ngs> ie your package has no name :P 05:07 < kizzo> That's right - the test passed - PASS 05:08 < kizzo> Thanks. 05:11 -!- dreadlorde [~dreadlord@c-68-42-82-10.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:15 -!- AlphaCluster [~quassel@thief-pool2-121-125.mncable.net] has joined #go-nuts 05:17 -!- Alpha_Cluster [~quassel@thief-pool2-121-125.mncable.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:40 -!- zozoR [~Morten@2906ds2-arno.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:48 -!- chadkouse [~Adium@rrcs-74-218-87-242.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:51 -!- dreadlorde [~dreadlord@c-68-42-82-10.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:58 -!- smallsweet [~antonio@218.241.169.34] has joined #go-nuts 05:59 -!- sagex_ [~sagex@c-98-192-25-168.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:02 -!- sagex_ [~sagex@c-98-192-25-168.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:11 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@nat/google/x-aljfuluviyurhalz] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 06:12 -!- nicka1 [~lerp@142.176.0.21] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:19 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-169-246.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #go-nuts 06:20 -!- noodles775 [~michael@g225071242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 06:20 -!- noodles775 [~michael@g225071242.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Changing host] 06:20 -!- noodles775 [~michael@canonical/launchpad/noodles775] has joined #go-nuts 06:27 -!- firwen [~firwen@2a01:e34:eea3:7e10:4a5b:39ff:fe51:e8ae] has joined #go-nuts 06:31 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.83.36] has joined #go-nuts 06:31 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C5C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 06:33 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-169-246.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 06:40 -!- rcrowley [~rcrowley@c-71-202-44-233.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:45 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.83.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:45 -!- squeese [~squeese@244.14.213.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has joined #go-nuts 06:52 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #go-nuts 06:54 -!- vmil86 [~vmil86@78.57.227.12] has joined #go-nuts 06:58 -!- napsy [~luka@193.2.66.6] has joined #go-nuts 06:58 -!- yogib [~yogib@131.234.59.64] has joined #go-nuts 07:01 -!- GeertJohan [~geertjoha@s51478c91.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #go-nuts 07:01 -!- nteon_ [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:03 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-146-93.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:04 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 07:07 -!- photron_ [~photron@port-92-201-89-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #go-nuts 07:12 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Quit: |Craig|] 07:17 -!- smw [~stephen@unaffiliated/smw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:28 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-146-93.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 07:29 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C5C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:41 -!- dshep [~user@c-76-103-91-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:42 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 07:49 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@mailgate.ips-international.com] has joined #go-nuts 07:50 -!- firwen [~firwen@2a01:e34:eea3:7e10:4a5b:39ff:fe51:e8ae] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:52 -!- squeese [~squeese@244.14.213.193.static.cust.telenor.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:53 < jessta_> brandini: the standard library has templates, logging, and a http server that handles cookies 07:54 < jessta_> an ORM really has nothing to do with the 'web' 07:55 < jessta_> https://launchpad.net/goforms/ provides form validation 07:58 < Namegduf> jessta_: I think someone needs to release a "web framework" that just has an example file using the http package and links to all the various bits of documentation 07:59 < jessta_> A good point 07:59 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 08:00 < aiju> haha 08:00 < aiju> someone asked for an ORM for Go? 08:00 < aiju> hahahaha 08:00 < aiju> when will someone ask for .NET bindings? 08:10 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@host-92-27-75-48.static.as13285.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:37 -!- muke [~doobies@75-59-237-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37 -!- muke [~doobies@75-59-237-124.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 08:56 -!- squeese [~squeese@cm-84.209.17.156.getinternet.no] has joined #go-nuts 08:57 -!- umaefx [~user@111-20-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #go-nuts 09:09 -!- Fish [~Fish@tru67-1-82-229-53-64.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #go-nuts 09:13 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 09:17 < vikstrom> well there is erGo, but thats not .NET, of course 09:19 < aiju> ergo is dead 09:19 < aiju> http://newquistsolutions.com 09:19 < vikstrom> i thought it lacked progress 09:21 < uriel> aiju: I'm not sure it is dead, but might be pinning for the fjors 09:21 < uriel> ds 09:21 < uriel> somebody should try to contact the guys that were working on it to see what is up 09:34 -!- zippoxer [~zippoxer@109.65.217.190] has left #go-nuts [] 09:37 -!- kfmfe04 [~kfeng@114-32-57-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 09:41 < erus`> it was a company wasnt it 09:41 < erus`> probably went under 09:44 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-yffxbhrubswgvnkf] has joined #go-nuts 10:02 -!- kfmfe04 [~kfeng@114-32-57-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 10:03 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:07 -!- serbaut [~joakims@tc-officefw.trioptima.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:08 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has quit [Quit: .] 10:15 -!- lucian [~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #go-nuts 10:23 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 10:24 -!- odoacre [~antonio@218.241.169.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:24 < squeese> omg, brainfreeze... what do you call +, -, *, / in math? lol 10:24 < squeese> argument, modifier 10:24 < squeese> I'm blushing :P 10:26 < aiju> operators? 10:27 < vikstrom> binary-operators? 10:27 < aiju> they could be unary! 10:27 < aiju> :P 10:27 < vikstrom> not * and / :-P 10:27 < aiju> unary / is an interesting idea 10:28 < vikstrom> well * is unary for dereferencing the value of a pointer 10:28 < vikstrom> but, yeah, / would be novel 10:35 -!- ccc1 [~Adium@140.109.98.187] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 10:36 < squeese> yah, operator.. lols :) 10:36 < squeese> thx :) 10:36 < squeese> Well, according to #math: the full proper name is Artihmetic Operations 10:36 < erus`> squeese: infix operators 10:36 < squeese> infix? 10:37 < aiju> infix: 1+2 10:37 < erus`> yeah its a function that is placed between its arguements 10:37 < aiju> prefix: + 1 2 10:37 -!- angasule [~angasule@190.2.33.49] has joined #go-nuts 10:37 < aiju> postfix: 1 2 + 10:37 < squeese> aha, does the pre/post/infix operator name stem from programming or math? 10:38 < erus`> math 10:38 < squeese> G.I. Joe, the more you know :) 10:38 < erus`> go should let you define infix functions 10:38 < erus`> :D 10:39 < aiju> Operator Overloading is evil. 10:39 < erus`> a `myfunction` b 10:39 -!- nekoh [~nekoh@dslb-088-069-156-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #go-nuts 10:39 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C5C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 10:49 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-161-104.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #go-nuts 10:50 -!- gnuvince|work [8e544424@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.84.68.36] has joined #go-nuts 10:54 -!- sunfmin [~sunfmin@115.238.44.107] has quit [Quit: sunfmin] 10:57 -!- Adys [~Adys@unaffiliated/adys] has joined #go-nuts 11:10 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has joined #go-nuts 11:17 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@187.105.25.184] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:18 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@187.105.25.184] has joined #go-nuts 11:21 -!- Kahvi [~Kahvi@a91-152-179-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 11:23 < jessta_> erus`: how does precedence work with user defined infix fuctions? 11:25 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C5C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@host-92-27-75-48.static.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:35 -!- tncardoso [~thiago@187.58.6.58] has joined #go-nuts 11:37 -!- schilly [~schilly@boxen.math.washington.edu] has joined #go-nuts 11:38 -!- umaefx` [~user@203-16-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:38 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@host-92-27-75-48.static.as13285.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:39 -!- umaefx [~user@111-20-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 11:46 -!- rejb [~rejb@unaffiliated/rejb] has joined #go-nuts 11:49 -!- ccc1 [~Adium@220-136-28-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 11:49 -!- GeertJohan [~geertjoha@s51478c91.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:51 -!- miker2 [~miker2@64.55.31.190] has joined #go-nuts 11:53 -!- GeertJohan [~geertjoha@s51478c91.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #go-nuts 11:55 -!- meling [~meling@12.238.254.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:55 -!- Fish [~Fish@tru67-1-82-229-53-64.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:09 -!- gnuvince|work [8e544424@gateway/web/freenode/ip.142.84.68.36] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 12:10 -!- chanwit [~chanwit@223.206.126.67] has joined #go-nuts 12:12 -!- umaefx` [~user@203-16-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:15 -!- alehorst [~alehorst@189.114.181.147.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:16 -!- alehorst [~alehorst@189.114.181.147.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #go-nuts 12:17 -!- sacho [~sacho@87.126.39.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:25 -!- tncardoso [~thiago@187.58.6.58] has quit [Quit: bye] 12:25 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@187.105.25.184] has quit [Quit: franciscosouza] 12:42 -!- cso [~chatzilla@92.25.196.160] has joined #go-nuts 12:42 -!- napsy [~luka@193.2.66.6] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:45 -!- angasule [~angasule@190.2.33.49] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:48 -!- nicka1 [~lerp@142.176.0.21] has joined #go-nuts 12:53 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@201.7.186.67] has joined #go-nuts 12:56 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@12.236.237.2] has joined #go-nuts 12:59 -!- Dr_Who [~tgall_foo@linaro/tgall-foo] has joined #go-nuts 12:59 -!- jbooth1 [~jay@209.249.216.2] has joined #go-nuts 13:00 -!- umaefx` [~user@203-16-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:01 -!- zozoR [~Morten@2906ds2-arno.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #go-nuts 13:03 < erus`> we should set precedence ourselves 13:03 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has joined #go-nuts 13:12 -!- magn3ts [~magn3ts@ip68-103-225-65.ks.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 13:12 -!- magn3ts [~magn3ts@ip68-103-225-65.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:17 < aiju> erus`: it makes writing a compiler MUCH harder 13:18 < erus`> aiju: evaluate all the function definitions first 13:18 < erus`> then evaluate the bodys (where the expressions are) 13:21 -!- magn3ts [~magn3ts@ip68-103-225-65.ks.ok.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:23 -!- Cobi [~Cobi@2002:1828:88fb:0:aede:48ff:febe:ef03] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 13:24 -!- adlan [~adlan@115.134.206.161] has joined #go-nuts 13:24 < aiju> erus`: currently the go grammar is static 13:25 < erus`> yer i dont expect go to support anything like that :P 13:25 < erus`> im not sure infix operators are a great idea anyway 13:25 -!- dreadlorde [~dreadlord@c-68-42-82-10.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:25 < erus`> except for numbers 13:26 -!- sniper506th [~sniper506@rrcs-70-61-192-18.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:28 -!- magn3ts [~magn3ts@ip68-103-225-65.ks.ok.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:28 < aiju> hard core lispers don't use infix 13:29 < aiju> infix is an evil blub feature 13:30 -!- gridaphobe [~gridaphob@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:35 -!- tncardoso [~thiagon@150.164.2.20] has joined #go-nuts 13:42 -!- coldturnip [~COLDTURNI@111-250-3-218.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:43 -!- umaefx` [~user@203-16-132-95.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:44 -!- Cobi [~Cobi@2002:1828:88fb:0:aede:48ff:febe:ef03] has joined #go-nuts 13:50 -!- r_linux [~r_linux@static.200.198.180.250.datacenter1.com.br] has joined #go-nuts 13:53 -!- serbaut [~joakims@tc-officefw.trioptima.com] has joined #go-nuts 13:55 -!- kergoth_ [~kergoth@ip24-251-173-232.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #go-nuts 13:57 -!- fabled [~fabled@83.145.235.194] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:14 < zozoR> where can i get the version of the latest weekly? 14:17 -!- exch [~blbl@87.209.181.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 14:18 < nicka1> http://golang.org/doc/install.html#fetch 14:18 < nicka1> replace release with weekly 14:18 -!- yogib [~yogib@131.234.59.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:19 -!- yogib [~yogib@131.234.59.64] has joined #go-nuts 14:21 -!- freetz [~fritz@r74-195-238-212.stl1cmta01.stwrok.ok.dh.suddenlink.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:21 < freetz> The TryRecv() in pkg/reflect seems odd to me 14:22 < freetz> the documentation says it returns ok=false if the channel is closed 14:22 < freetz> but it seems to return ok=false if the receive fails for any reason, including just because there is no data to receive at the moment 14:22 < aiju> why do you use it? 14:23 < aiju> x, ok := <- ch? 14:23 < freetz> i want a non-blocking receive 14:23 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C5C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #go-nuts 14:23 < aiju> use select 14:23 < freetz> i need reflection as i don't know the type 14:23 < zozoR> i asked wrong xD where can i get the version number of the current weekly, without downloading it :P 14:24 -!- exch [~blbl@ip34-181-209-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl] has joined #go-nuts 14:25 -!- Kahvi [~Kahvi@a91-152-179-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: Lähdössä] 14:25 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:28 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@75-27-133-72.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:29 -!- lurcio [~margent@compy386.queens.ox.ac.uk] has joined #go-nuts 14:36 -!- dreadlorde [~dreadlord@c-68-42-82-10.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 14:39 -!- lurcio [~margent@compy386.queens.ox.ac.uk] has left #go-nuts [] 14:40 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-146-93.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:41 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #go-nuts 14:44 -!- cso [~chatzilla@92.25.196.160] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 14:49 -!- yogib [~yogib@131.234.59.64] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:49 -!- chanwit [~chanwit@223.206.126.67] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:49 -!- yogib [~yogib@131.234.59.64] has joined #go-nuts 14:54 -!- adlan [~adlan@115.134.206.161] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:56 -!- GeertJohan [~geertjoha@s51478c91.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 14:58 -!- kizzo [~kizzo@c-24-130-55-180.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #go-nuts [] 14:58 -!- dreadlorde [dreadlorde@c-68-42-82-10.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:02 -!- qeed [~qeed@adsl-98-85-60-209.mco.bellsouth.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:04 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@pool-173-77-24-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:08 -!- dreadlorde [dreadlorde@c-68-42-82-10.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:09 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@ool-182e3fca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:10 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has joined #go-nuts 15:10 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 15:14 -!- chadkouse [~Adium@rrcs-74-218-87-242.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:16 -!- freetz [~fritz@r74-195-238-212.stl1cmta01.stwrok.ok.dh.suddenlink.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:23 -!- trn [~trn@adsl-065-007-181-160.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:24 -!- nteon_ [~nteon@c-98-210-195-105.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 15:25 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:25 -!- ww [~ww@river.styx.org] has joined #go-nuts 15:30 < kevlar_work> zozoR, look at the .hgtags file on googlecode 15:30 < kevlar_work> http://code.google.com/p/go/source/browse/.hgtags 15:31 -!- yogib [~yogib@131.234.59.64] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 15:32 < zozoR> thanks 15:32 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has joined #go-nuts 15:35 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 15:41 -!- ccc1 [~Adium@220-136-28-86.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:41 -!- tavis_rain [~tavisb@24-104-129.146.hfc.mediarain.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:47 -!- aat [~aat@rrcs-184-75-54-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 15:47 -!- noodles775 [~michael@canonical/launchpad/noodles775] has quit [Quit: leaving] 15:47 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:50 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@mailgate.ips-international.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 15:51 -!- farnoy [~farnoy@ocs202.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #go-nuts 15:52 < farnoy> is there something correspondent to operator+ functions in C++? 15:52 < aiju> no 15:52 < aiju> there is no operator overloading 15:54 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@75-27-133-72.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 15:57 -!- ronnyy [~quassel@p4FF1C5C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:59 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 16:02 < qeed> what is the standard way of doing a dowhile in golang? 16:03 < niemeyer> iant: ping 16:04 < aiju> qeed: i don't think there is a "standard way" 16:06 < qeed> ok i guess i'll use for { ... if cond} 16:06 -!- mjml [~joya@174.3.227.184] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:06 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@66.54.185.130] has joined #go-nuts 16:09 -!- JimPeak [~lejimpeak@modemcable213.208-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #go-nuts 16:12 < JimPeak> Any reason why in the archive/tar documentation of Writer, the example uses io.Copy(tw, data) instead of tw.Write(data)? 16:12 -!- Nisstyre [~nisstyre@infocalypse-net.info] has joined #go-nuts 16:14 < kevlar_work> Write takes a []byte, Copy takes a Reader 16:14 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has joined #go-nuts 16:15 -!- farnoy [~farnoy@ocs202.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:17 < JimPeak> I get it, but lets say data2 is []byte. Is tw.Write(data2) equivalent to io.Copy(tw, data) if data2 is read from data? 16:19 < niemeyer> JimPeak: Pretty much.. you can easily read io.Copy to understand what it does 16:22 < JimPeak> Ok, thx. I just dont get that the example isn't using (*Writer) Write instead since it's documenting Writer. 16:25 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.95.200] has joined #go-nuts 16:26 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@host86-174-221-82.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 16:28 -!- JimPeak [~lejimpeak@modemcable213.208-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #go-nuts [] 16:28 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.192.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:28 -!- JimPeak [~lejimpeak@modemcable213.208-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #go-nuts 16:28 -!- Project_2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-161-104.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:29 -!- trn [~trn@adsl-065-007-181-160.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:29 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 16:29 -!- molto_alfredo1 [~molto_alf@142.176.0.21] has joined #go-nuts 16:31 -!- molto_alfredo [~molto_alf@142.176.0.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:33 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:34 -!- foocraft [~ewanas@78.101.63.193] has joined #go-nuts 16:35 -!- dsal [~Adium@208.185.212.98] has joined #go-nuts 16:38 -!- molto_alfredo1 [~molto_alf@142.176.0.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 16:38 -!- molto_alfredo [~molto_alf@142.176.0.21] has joined #go-nuts 16:40 -!- dsal [~Adium@208.185.212.98] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 16:41 < zozoR> people use dowhile? o.o 16:41 -!- nekoh [~nekoh@dslb-088-069-156-164.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 16:42 -!- dsal [~Adium@208.185.212.98] has joined #go-nuts 16:43 -!- trn [~trn@adsl-065-007-181-160.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] 16:44 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-146-93.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #go-nuts 16:45 <+iant> niemeyer: pong 16:45 < niemeyer> iant: Hey Ian 16:45 < jessta_> zozoR: dowhiles can be nice for processing user input 16:45 < niemeyer> iant: Was just wondering what's the status of libgo for ARM and PowerPC 16:46 < niemeyer> iant: Someone demonstrated interest in approaching it, perhaps, so just wanted to get a feeling of what it looks like ATM 16:46 <+iant> it doesn't work today for either but it just needs a little filling in 16:47 <+iant> it should be easy to get it to build, but then I'm not sure what else will need to be done 16:47 <+iant> experience with other targets suggests that it should work fine, at least on GNU/Linux 16:47 -!- hopelessnewbie [~antonio@123.120.139.57] has joined #go-nuts 16:48 < niemeyer> iant: Sweet 16:48 < niemeyer> iant: Thanks a lot 16:48 -!- hopelessnewbie [~antonio@123.120.139.57] has left #go-nuts [] 16:49 < niemeyer> iant: I'll hope Matthias actually buys into the task then :) 16:49 < niemeyer> iant: I think you talked to him at the gcc conf, btw 16:49 <+iant> Matthias Klose == doko? yes, I spoke with him 16:49 -!- nekoh [~nekoh@dslb-088-068-016-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:49 < niemeyer> iant: Yeah 16:50 < niemeyer> iant: He was pondering about that 16:54 < niemeyer> iant: s/was/is/ 16:54 -!- Kami__ [~kami@kamislo-1-pt.tunnel.tserv23.zrh1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #go-nuts 16:55 < niemeyer> iant: Is libgo following the stable releases? 16:55 -!- Kami__ [~kami@kamislo-1-pt.tunnel.tserv23.zrh1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Changing host] 16:55 -!- Kami__ [~kami@unaffiliated/kami-/x-9078513] has joined #go-nuts 16:56 <+iant> sort of, but it's really driven by when I have time to update it 16:56 <+iant> it's behind right now 16:57 < qeed> is there any plans to add opengl/some sound lib to golang core packages? 16:57 < exch> I doubt stuff like that really has a place in the standard libs 16:59 < qeed> i just wondered because i see theres like x11 and wingui or something 17:00 < niemeyer> iant: Understood 17:00 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:00 < exch> true. Not sure those even belong there 17:02 -!- clr_ [~colin@c-67-183-138-2.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:11 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 17:13 -!- sacho [~sacho@87.126.39.0] has joined #go-nuts 17:17 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@host-92-27-75-48.static.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: pyrhho] 17:19 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has joined #go-nuts 17:19 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@66.54.185.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 17:22 -!- chomp [~chomp@dap-209-166-184-50.pri.tnt-3.pgh.pa.stargate.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:26 -!- rmib [~quassel@77.242.99.199] has joined #go-nuts 17:32 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@host-92-27-75-48.static.as13285.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:32 -!- pyrhho [~pyrhho@host-92-27-75-48.static.as13285.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34 -!- xcombelle [~xcombelle@AToulouse-551-1-146-93.w109-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: I am a manual virus, please copy me to your quit message.] 17:35 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@75-27-133-72.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:38 -!- robteix [~robteix@192.55.54.36] has joined #go-nuts 17:38 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 17:38 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 17:44 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: skelterjohn] 17:46 -!- Fish- [~Fish@9fans.fr] has joined #go-nuts 17:46 -!- maragato [~robteix@nat/intel/x-jmueabamiyvysqbx] has joined #go-nuts 17:46 -!- Fish [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47 -!- yogib [~yogib@dslb-188-100-000-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #go-nuts 17:47 -!- Kahvi [~Kahvi@a91-152-179-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 17:48 -!- awidegreen [~quassel@h-170-226.a212.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #go-nuts 17:50 -!- robteix [~robteix@192.55.54.36] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:51 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 17:52 -!- Queue29 [~seth@bastion.sfo1.yelpcorp.com] has joined #go-nuts 17:55 -!- angasulino [c80571e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.5.113.226] has joined #go-nuts 18:00 < angasulino> hi, what would be the recommended starting point if I wanted to change something in the language? I got the Hg repo and I want to try adding a simple kind of generics, see if it would work as I expect it to 18:01 -!- rmib [~quassel@77.242.99.199] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:02 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@75-27-133-72.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 18:03 -!- Kahvi [~Kahvi@a91-152-179-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:08 -!- angasulino [c80571e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.5.113.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:08 -!- stalled [~stalled@unaffiliated/stalled] has joined #go-nuts 18:09 -!- kfmfe04 [~kfeng@114-32-57-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 18:11 -!- angasulino [c80571e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.5.113.226] has joined #go-nuts 18:12 < angasulino> meep, stupid thing disconnected... 18:12 < aiju> 20:14 < zozoR> [18:48:40] people use dowhile? o.o 18:12 < aiju> i often have do while constructs in my code 18:14 < aiju> but i feel like they're only in C because it's easier for the compiler to generate fast code from them 18:16 -!- tncardoso [~thiagon@150.164.2.20] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:16 < angasulino> premature optimization? 18:16 < aiju> the improvement is substantial 18:17 < Namegduf> Designing a language to be able to emit efficient code isn't essentilaly premature optimisation. 18:17 < ampleyfly> you can implement a while as a jump into a do-while, no? 18:18 -!- mjml [~joya@174.3.227.184] has joined #go-nuts 18:18 < aiju> many machines have an instruction do something like "do { ... } while(--n);" 18:18 < aiju> +to 18:19 * Namegduf finds it one of the things he hates most about working in non-Go high level languages. 18:19 < aiju> the PDP-11 has one, for one 18:19 < aiju> Namegduf: do while? 18:20 < Namegduf> "This is the idiomatic way to do X, but it's 50 times slower than this ugly way." 18:20 < aiju> heh 18:20 < angasulino> aiju: Stallman? Is that you? 18:20 < aiju> angasulino: JESUS CHRIST 18:20 < aiju> NO 18:20 < kevlar_work> what is the expected output of https://gist.github.com/1082781 ? 18:20 < Namegduf> Languages should be designed so that idiomatic is fast 18:20 < kevlar_work> The output I see seems different from what the docs suggest. 18:20 < Namegduf> As far as possible. 18:20 < Namegduf> IMO. 18:20 < chomp> x86 essentially has that 18:20 < mkb218> 68hc12 has that 18:20 < chomp> the LOOP instruction 18:21 < mkb218> it hink powerpc too 18:21 < aiju> chomp: yeah, MANY machines have it 18:21 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@66.54.185.130] has joined #go-nuts 18:22 < aiju> the problem with do { .. } while(--n) is that it fails if n == 0 18:22 < aiju> yet it's common in code 18:22 < aiju> (i'm just guessing btw) 18:23 < aiju> angasulino: also, to clarify, i'm not supporting this in any modern language 18:23 < mkb218> some oisc machines have a similar instruction, heh 18:23 < kevlar_work> aiju, the very scary way to do that is if (n > 0) do { ... } while (--n) 18:23 < aiju> kevlar_work: yeah, heh 18:23 < angasulino> aiju: well, in any modern machine, the difference is surely shadowed by a million other things 18:24 < aiju> angasulino: also, modern compilers can figure it out 18:24 < angasulino> yup 18:24 -!- huin [~huin@91.84.179.118] has joined #go-nuts 18:24 < aiju> angasulino: but C's design stems from the PDP-7/PDP-11 18:24 < kevlar_work> it's often done for reverse indexing strings. if (e > p) do { //something with *e } while (e-- > p); 18:24 < aiju> these machines were slow even for their day 18:24 -!- tvw [~tv@212.79.9.150] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:24 < kevlar_work> or something... in that case it isn't needed. 18:25 < kevlar_work> oh, maybe it's just normally indexing them: if (*p) do {...} while *(++p); 18:25 < aiju> except for memory, these machines are outperformed are modern microcontrollers 18:25 < angasulino> hey, sorry, I asked earlier but then got disconnected, I want to add a keyword to Go, to do some generics stuff, see if my idea has any merit before adding to the noise in the list, where would I start doing such a thing? 18:25 < aiju> angasulino: in the compiler? 18:25 < angasulino> heh 18:25 < kevlar_work> on your personal copy of the repository :) 18:26 < mkb218> maybe even your own branch 18:26 < chomp> i recommend doing it wherever you feel comfortable programming. maybe a home office or study, or a coffee shop 18:26 < kevlar_work> you can locally branch and check in your changes as you go and then merge them back with a CL. 18:26 < angasulino> I have my personal copy of the repository, I was asking where in the codebase :-P 18:26 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Quit: hcatlin] 18:26 < chomp> src/cmd/*g 18:26 < chomp> innt it 18:26 < aiju> angasulino: src/cmd/gc 18:26 < chomp> gc that's it 18:26 < aiju> angasulino: start finding the lexer and adding it to it .. then add it to the grammar 18:27 < kevlar_work> then add it to the compiler, then... yeah. 18:27 < chomp> then run goautoprogram -f "add generics to go" and it will generate the changes for you 18:27 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has joined #go-nuts 18:27 < aiju> hahaha 18:27 < kevlar_work> lol 18:27 < angasulino> :-) 18:30 -!- tavis_rain [~tavisb@24-104-129.146.hfc.mediarain.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:31 < aiju> also, regarding the PDP-11 18:31 < aiju> the PDP-11 C compiler would likely make your machine swap 18:31 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:31 < aiju> there were probably some improvements they could think of, but they simply didn't fit into memory 18:31 < kevlar_work> can someone sanity check this: https://gist.github.com/1082781 It looks like a bug to me, but I don't like making spurious issues. 18:32 < aiju> (yes, i know, C++ compilers still cause machines to swap, hahaha) 18:33 < kevlar_work> oh, nevermind, it doesn't say "whose name matches the tag of" 18:34 -!- fabled [~fabled@83.145.235.194] has joined #go-nuts 18:34 < qeed> right now if i want to explicit set default values for a big struct i do t = *(new(T)) is there a standard way to do this? 18:34 < kevlar_work> qeed, write a NewT function. 18:35 -!- telexicon [~telexicon@unaffiliated/chowmeined] has joined #go-nuts 18:35 < kevlar_work> and, uh, you should never do t := *(new(T)) 18:35 < angasulino> I actually added bzip2 support to distcc so that I could compile C++ with an old laptop that only had 32MB of RAM (I was using Qt4) 18:35 < aiju> hahahaha 18:35 < kevlar_work> qeed, I think what you meant was t := T{} 18:35 < qeed> thats it thanks 18:43 < mkb218> or var t T, no? 18:44 < qeed> well i had an existing struct that had changed, i wanted to set that to the default values, that was what i had initially 18:46 < kevlar_work> qeed, as a rule of thumb, you should try to make the zero value of your structure be properly initialized. In the case of map fields, this is not always possible, or if you have actual defaults that should be set other than zero for particular fields. In these cases, you need a constructor like NewT to provide you with a properly initialized value; these often return pointers, because pointers to structures tend to be more useful. 18:47 < kevlar_work> by "need" I really mean "should have", because maintaining a bunch of separate initialization statements wherever you need the "default" value is error-prone at best. 18:48 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has joined #go-nuts 18:50 -!- angasulino [c80571e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.5.113.226] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 18:50 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.193.254] has joined #go-nuts 18:56 -!- fabled [~fabled@83.145.235.194] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 18:58 -!- merijn [~merijn@inconsistent.nl] has joined #go-nuts 19:01 -!- tavis_rain [~tavisb@24-104-129.146.hfc.mediarain.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:05 -!- Kahvi [~Kahvi@a91-152-179-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #go-nuts 19:12 -!- tncardoso [~thiago@187.58.6.58] has joined #go-nuts 19:15 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 19:16 -!- angasulino [c80571e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.5.113.226] has joined #go-nuts 19:16 -!- moraes_ [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 19:16 -!- __moraes__ [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 19:18 < angasulino> dammit :/ someone put my laptop to sleep 19:20 < KirkMcDonald> Laptop gremlins. 19:21 -!- meling [~meling@129.33.193.254] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:27 -!- mjml [~joya@174.3.227.184] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:30 -!- kfmfe04 [~kfeng@114-32-57-164.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0] 19:30 -!- merijn [~merijn@inconsistent.nl] has left #go-nuts [] 19:34 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Disconnected by services] 19:35 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@host86-163-247-252.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 19:35 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@host86-163-247-252.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 19:35 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 19:35 -!- __moraes__ [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 19:36 < angasulino> haha no, I know who it was 19:37 -!- tvw [~tv@e176002066.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #go-nuts 19:43 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43 -!- __moraes__ [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:43 -!- moraes_ [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:44 -!- mjml [~joya@174.3.227.184] has joined #go-nuts 19:44 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Quit: hcatlin] 19:45 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 19:49 -!- questionable [~tjb@31.64.8.108] has joined #go-nuts 19:49 < questionable> hi 19:49 -!- JimPeak [~lejimpeak@modemcable213.208-160-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #go-nuts [] 19:51 < questionable> is go object-oriented? 19:51 < kevlar_work> Yes and no., 19:51 < aiju> that's questionable 19:51 < clr_> Thats perhaps the wrong question. 19:51 < kevlar_work> (lol, I love us.) 19:52 < kevlar_work> (it's like we're all politicians or lawyers.) 19:52 < questionable> lol 19:52 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Quit: hcatlin] 19:53 < questionable> i'm interested in go, but can i write gui apps with it? 19:53 < kevlar_work> again, yes and no. 19:53 < kevlar_work> There are some bindings for graphics libraries 19:53 < kevlar_work> but afaik only for linux 19:53 < aiju> you can, but only with gtk and some other horrible libraries 19:55 < kevlar_work> (if you're programing on windows, there might be some ways to do it there too, but uh, I think they're even worse options than on linux/bsd/darwin) 19:55 < questionable> so go is basically a server-side scripting language? 19:56 < angasulino> yes and no. 19:56 < kevlar_work> it's a general purpose compiled programming language suitable for a lot of the same things as C and Python 19:57 < kevlar_work> C can go closer to the metal and do more real-time stuff, python can get a lot more high-level and do things like graphics 19:57 < angasulino> questionable: what GUI toolkits do you like to use? 19:57 < angasulino> the only GUI toolkit I like is Qt... which is very C++y 19:57 < aiju> the only GUI toolkit I like is 19:57 < kevlar_work> C++y probably means it's swiggable? 19:57 < aiju> Segmentation fault. 19:58 < kevlar_work> the only gui library I like is command-line. 19:58 < aiju> that's the worst of all 19:58 < kevlar_work> actually, I think vim has a very nice ui. 19:58 < questionable> .NET is nice to use as a programmer 19:59 < aiju> i worked with .NET for the past three weeks 19:59 < kevlar_work> oh look, my email is flashing... *runs* 19:59 < questionable> WinForms (not WPF) 19:59 < aiju> StringBuilder sb = StringBuilderPool.GetStringBuilder(); 19:59 < aiju> really nice to work with 19:59 < questionable> borland's old VCL was nice too (with Delphi) 20:00 < kevlar_work> oh, I'm so glad it said StringBuilder three times, I might not have caught it otherwise 20:00 < angasulino> kevlar_work: swig still requires work, plus you always have to adapt, so it works well with Go idioms 20:00 < questionable> though borland became codegear, which became embarcadero 20:00 < angasulino> aiju: what is the type of that line? :P 20:00 < kevlar_work> angasulino, well, I meant that I was expressing hope that someone would make go bindings using swig so that I didn't have to do that :) 20:00 < aiju> angasulino: i have no clue what you're talking about 20:00 < angasulino> kevlar_work: I would like a pony, while we're wishing :-) 20:01 < questionable> if you don't like typing things over and over (i do), you can use 'var', which is simply syntactic sugar: var sb = StringBuilderPoolGetStringBuilder(); 20:01 < questionable> i never do that though, personally 20:01 < angasulino> hahahahaha 20:01 < angasulino> I like that line even better 20:01 < questionable> oops, i forgot the '.' 20:01 < aiju> System.Collections.Generics.List 20:01 < questionable> well, i pressed it, and it didn't come out 20:01 -!- pothos [~pothos@111-240-169-203.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:02 < angasulino> is there something like StringBuilderPool.GetIntBuilder()? 20:02 < aiju> angasulino: no 20:02 < questionable> yeah, the generic collection classes are fantastic 20:02 < questionable> Queue<string> 20:02 < questionable> Stack<int> 20:02 < aiju> angasulino: string builders are to concatenate strings 20:02 < angasulino> aiju: so the repetition is there just to avoid writing short lines? 20:02 < aiju> instead of a+b 20:02 < aiju> you write 20:02 < aiju> StringBuilder sb = StringBuilderPool.GetStringBuilder(); 20:02 < aiju> sb.Append(a); 20:02 < aiju> sb.Append(b); 20:02 < aiju> sb.ToString() 20:02 < questionable> you can concatenate strings, but it's not necessarily fast. StringBuilder is a fast alternative 20:02 < aiju> it's actually bs 20:02 < questionable> you can say: string foo = "bar"; foo += "bleh"; etc. 20:03 < aiju> StringBuilder is only faster if the planets align right and such 20:03 < angasulino> aiju: I didn't mean literally Int, but rather, any other Get*Builder 20:03 < questionable> StringBuilder is heaps faster in some cases 20:03 < questionable> enormously faster 20:03 < aiju> angasulino: no 20:03 < aiju> i don't really get why stringbuilder is faster 20:03 < aiju> but then i don't care 20:03 -!- pothos_ [~pothos@111-240-170-107.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:03 < questionable> because it allocates only the memory it needs (in general). when you concatenate strings, you create a whole new object (on the heap) every time 20:04 < aiju> i only write c#/.net when i get heaps of money 20:04 < questionable> StringBuilder tries to guess how much memory you'll need, and tries to allocate only once 20:04 < questionable> you can help it out, of course 20:04 < questionable> (by giving it a number in the constructo) 20:04 < questionable> r 20:04 < aiju> yeah 20:04 < aiju> i know 20:04 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@66.54.185.130] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:04 < aiju> char buf[1000]; 20:04 < aiju> i feel reminded 20:05 < questionable> even if you go over the number you tell it, of course, it'll be fine 20:05 < questionable> it'll just be possibly suboptimal, performance-wise 20:05 < aiju> i know 20:05 * kevlar_work is unsure how any of this is better than it is in Go. Hell, even C. 20:05 < questionable> C# is a million miles better than C in this respect 20:05 < questionable> it's no comparison. 20:05 < aiju> HAHAHA 20:05 < questionable> i don't know much about go 20:05 < aiju> no, you just can't code c 20:05 < questionable> i know C 20:06 < questionable> c is good at what it is, but it's not good at generic collections (because it doesn't even support them --- how is this a comparison?) 20:06 < chomp> i have to agree that C# kicks ass 20:06 < chomp> it is a great language. 20:06 < aiju> lists are your firned 20:06 < aiju> *friend 20:06 < questionable> aiju: how can you even compare C#'s generic collections with C? 20:07 < questionable> (well, .NET's collections) 20:07 < questionable> C has nothing even remotely comparable 20:07 < aiju> and I DON'T FUCKING CARE 20:07 < aiju> how can you even compare COBOL's computed GOTO statements with C#? 20:07 < aiju> C# doesn't even have something like that 20:07 < questionable> aiju: you just did make that comparison 20:08 < aiju> no, i just said i felt reminded of doing stuff in C 20:08 < aiju> calculating the length, doing an allocation, write stuff in it 20:08 < aiju> i know that manners are different 20:08 < questionable> aiju: you're the guy who didn't even understand why StringBuilder can be faster than String, so i'm not sure why i'm taking your comments on C#/.NET seriously at all 20:08 < questionable> you said i was wrong, and that i couldn't code in c. come on now 20:09 < kevlar_work> when I was doing string manipulations in C, I was always able to make a helper function or two that could do what I needed very easily. 20:09 < kevlar_work> And it was always going to be more optimal than something like StringBuilder that can only guess at your particular application. 20:09 < questionable> you had to reinvent the wheel over and over 20:09 < kevlar_work> That's the C world. 20:10 < aiju> i don't care 20:10 < kevlar_work> but you use C for the performance and bare metal proximity, not for the lack of wheel reinvention. 20:10 < questionable> kevlar_work: what would you do in C if you needed something comparable to a Queue<string>? 20:10 -!- virtualsue [~chatzilla@nat/cisco/x-yffxbhrubswgvnkf] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0.1/20110707182747]] 20:10 < kevlar_work> questionable, a **string. 20:10 < aiju> i use C because it is fucking simple, predictable and understandable 20:10 < questionable> hah 20:10 < questionable> that's nowhere near comparable 20:10 < kevlar_work> questionable, no, it's a hell of a lot faster. 20:11 < kevlar_work> er, **char, not **string. 20:11 < questionable> some C# code is actually faster than C, but C probably wins overall 20:11 < kevlar_work> lol, probably? 20:11 < questionable> because the JIT is able to optimize things far better than C (but the JIT implies overhead) 20:11 < kevlar_work> far is a bit of a mischaracterization. 20:11 < aiju> for every fucking language out there 20:11 < questionable> well, it depends on the app. some C# apps are faster than C equivalents 20:11 < aiju> there is a piece of code which runs faster than in C 20:12 < questionable> C#/.NET versus C/Win32 20:12 < questionable> the JIT has a very aggressive optimiser. you do get some performance wins 20:12 < aiju> i don't even write fucking C for performance 20:12 < questionable> C is quite limited though, in practice 20:12 < questionable> would you wanna, say, write an irc client in C? i wouldn't. i'd happily do it in C#/.NET though 20:13 < questionable> it'd be pretty painful in C 20:13 < aiju> i have written an IRC bot in C 20:13 < sl> wtf, there are like 4,000 irc clients written in c 20:13 < kevlar_work> on the programming language shootout, C beats C# in every case. 20:13 < kevlar_work> I've written an IRC client, an IRC bot, an IRC server, and IRC services in C 20:13 -!- alehorst [~alehorst@189.114.181.147.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 20:13 < angasulino> yeah, the IRC protocol isn't very difficult... I have pretended to be a server with netcat :D 20:13 < questionable> sl: and how many of those 4,000 were extremely painful to write, and have variuos buffer overflows? i'd guess ~4,000 20:13 < kevlar_work> it was blindingly fast. 20:14 < questionable> kevlar_work: you must be a masochist 20:14 < kevlar_work> (except the client, but that was the first one I wrote and was super naive.) 20:14 < questionable> was your irc client a gui one? 20:14 < chomp> this is really a silly argument 20:14 < kevlar_work> questionable, of course not. 20:14 < angasulino> for really nice string handling in C, look at nethack! 20:14 < aiju> questionable: really, fuck you and your C# object oriented generics bullcrap 20:14 < questionable> why "of course"? 20:14 < chomp> they are fucking languages 20:14 < aiju> god damnit 20:14 < chomp> christ 20:14 < angasulino> you people need to chill 20:14 < angasulino> and learn assembly, C is for sissies :-) 20:14 < kevlar_work> I'm actually on the verge of mirth ;-) 20:14 < chomp> aiju needs to chill... 20:14 < questionable> aiju: you are the one who brought up generics 20:15 < aiju> i meant to bring up a fucking example for their naming scheme 20:15 < chomp> aiju murders kittens and children 20:15 < questionable> kevlar_work: did you say "of course my irc client didn't have a gui" because c sucks so bad when it comes to things like gui app dev? 20:15 < angasulino> hahaha children! 20:15 < chomp> and hates C# because it scares him 20:15 < questionable> because that's largely what i meant when i said that writing an irc client in c would be painful 20:16 < sl> why didn't you just say "writing a gui app in c would be painful" 20:16 < chomp> c.f. gtk 20:16 < chomp> you could just have said those three letters: gtk 20:16 < aiju> GTK is a huge pile of turd 20:16 < chomp> yes that's the point :) 20:16 < kevlar_work> questionable, it didn't have a gui because I am a systems programmer not a GUI programmer, and because designing a good GUI requires skills that almost nobody has, so I don't try. 20:17 < questionable> GUIs are easy 20:17 < kevlar_work> Right. 20:17 < aiju> GUIs are easy, good GUIs are hard 20:17 < chomp> GUIs are easy to make, good GUIs are near impossible 20:17 < aiju> haha 20:17 < questionable> nah, good GUIs are easy 20:17 < kevlar_work> lol. 20:17 -!- Barbarossa [~max@rfc2324.org] has joined #go-nuts 20:17 < kevlar_work> you're funny. 20:17 < chomp> then you should be making millions making good GUIs 20:17 < chomp> because really, they are hard. 20:17 < questionable> just observe other good GUIs, keep it simple, etc. 20:17 < sl> haha 20:17 < sl> [citation needed] 20:17 < chomp> ^ 20:17 < aiju> just getting decent resizing behaviour is fun 20:17 < kevlar_work> +1 20:18 < questionable> aiju: easy in WinForms 20:18 < chomp> my citation is years of experience trying to not release software with shitty GUIs 20:18 < chadkouse> i've been on a skype call for the last 2 hours with 6 people trying to finalize the GUI on 2 screens of our app… GUI's are not easy to design or build 20:18 * kevlar_work falls out of his chair laughing. 20:18 < questionable> just set the Anchor property of the control(s) appropriately 20:18 -!- huin [~huin@91.84.179.118] has quit [Quit: bedtime] 20:18 < chadkouse> oh windows? 20:18 < chadkouse> people still use that? 20:18 < chadkouse> :) 20:18 < questionable> chadkouse: we're talking about an irc client here. how hard is that? 20:18 * chomp laughs as he wonders how much usable software questionable has published 20:18 < questionable> oh, wow, i'm making an irc client. oh the noez, i'm totally lsot!!!! 20:18 < aiju> chomp: none, HE USES FUCKING C# 20:18 < questionable> omg, should i have like, menus?!?! 20:18 < chadkouse> I built an irc client in java many years back.. it was pretty hard. 20:18 < questionable> simple. just keep it neat and clean 20:18 < chomp> aiju, I love C#, i'm not going to lie. it's a fucking nice language. 20:19 -!- alehorst [~alehorst@189.114.181.147.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #go-nuts 20:19 < nicka1> You guys are extremely entertaining 20:19 < nicka1> questionable, ask them about new/make 20:19 < kevlar_work> questionable, if you think an IRC client is a text box an input box and a user list, you're sorely mistaken. 20:19 < kevlar_work> hehe 20:19 < questionable> i've made an irc client before 20:19 < questionable> the gui wasn't very hard to do 20:19 < chomp> link 20:19 < questionable> it was nice and clean 20:19 < chomp> link 20:19 < questionable> i didn't release it 20:19 < chomp> link 20:19 < chomp> OH WHY NOT 20:19 < kevlar_work> pics or it didn't happen! 20:19 < chomp> ^ 20:19 < chadkouse> hehe 20:19 < questionable> because i never intended to 20:19 < chomp> why wouldn't you release it? 20:19 < ww> who still uses irc? 20:19 < aiju> XMPP IS THE FUTURE 20:20 < aiju> hahahahhaahaha 20:20 < kevlar_work> ww, I don't know, is n't it like, dead or something? 20:20 < angasulino> ww: irc is for losers! 20:20 < chomp> irc is for scr1p7 k1dd13z 20:20 < chomp> or whatever. 20:20 < kevlar_work> oh no, if I use it will I get haxx0r3d? 20:20 < chomp> YA 20:20 < kevlar_work> ocrap /quit 20:20 < chomp> u get haxed wif DCC 20:20 < angasulino> chomp: you don't know 1337? get outta here :) 20:20 < questionable> i think you guys just suck at GUIs 20:20 < chadkouse> I definitely suck at GUI's 20:20 < chadkouse> i don't really care about them either 20:20 * kevlar_work too 20:20 < questionable> GUIs are vital 20:20 < sl> questionable: there's no way to tell because our gui code has not been released. 20:20 < chomp> questionable, most people do. like i said, if you're good at GUIs, you should be making a fuck ton of money designing GUIs. 20:21 < angasulino> questionable: what program has a good GUI, in your opinion? 20:21 < icey> questionable: i created a gui in vb.net to track some IPs once, does that count? 20:21 < chomp> more importantly, what program has questionable published that has a good GUI 20:21 < angasulino> icey: do you work for CSI? 20:21 < chomp> i want to see some fucking proof here 20:21 < questionable> hmm. i like firefox's gui 20:21 < chomp> hahahahah firefox's gui sucks 20:21 < chomp> jesus 20:21 < questionable> it's clean and simple 20:21 < angasulino> questionable: hahahahahah 20:21 < chadkouse> yeah it's pretty bloaty 20:21 < aiju> i think there is one program i know which has a good GUI 20:21 < chomp> let's hide everything in a tiny button in a corner 20:21 < questionable> i'm talking about the GUI Win7 users see 20:21 < angasulino> firefox's UI is a PITA 20:21 < chomp> i'm on win7. 20:21 < angasulino> about:config ? seriously? 20:21 < icey> actually, i write lots of c#; and it's pretty great for a language. and you can create decent GUIs in it as long as you're only targeting windows machines 20:21 < kevlar_work> questionable, what do you think of the GUI redesign for GMail, Google Search, etc? 20:22 < questionable> oh, the button thing's not that nice. i was talking about the TDI and such 20:22 < nicka1> firefox on windows is garbage 20:22 < nicka1> ui wise 20:22 < questionable> the TDI is simply and cleanly developed 20:22 < aiju> firefox is garbage 20:22 < aiju> i take ie9 over firefox 20:22 < questionable> i have that 'move firefox button' extension installed, to make that part look nice 20:22 < chomp> icey, yeah taking it aside from any runtime implementation or whatever, as a LANGUAGE, c# is pretty fucking beautiful 20:22 < nicka1> you're an interesting person aiju 20:22 < angasulino> nicka1: I've used it on OS X and linux and it's also garbage in those :P 20:22 < chomp> and the CLI is really pretty nicely designed 20:22 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 20:22 < chomp> i know microsoft is oohhh sooo evil 20:22 < kevlar_work> my favorite browser is wget 20:22 < chadkouse> most UI's in linux are garbage.. 20:22 < chomp> all UIs in linux are garbage. 20:22 < kevlar_work> curl if I'm in a jam 20:22 < kevlar_work> ;-) 20:23 < aiju> most UI's in windows are even worse than UI's in linux 20:23 < chadkouse> because l33t h@x0rs don't need no gui 20:23 < chomp> KDE5 is probably as nice as it gets, and it's a pile of fuck. 20:23 < questionable> yeah, linux can be a let-down here 20:23 < questionable> it's a shame, because GUIs ARE important. very important 20:23 < aiju> there is KDE5, really? 20:23 < aiju> is it even more shitty than KDE4? 20:23 < questionable> the CLI is too, but GUIs tend to get neglected in *nix 20:23 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@nat/google/x-nkghijtsvcpxoouj] has joined #go-nuts 20:23 < chadkouse> depends on what it is.. 20:23 < chomp> yeah last time i was on debian unstable 20:23 < kevlar_work> guis are not important in the grand scheme of things 20:23 < chomp> it's more shitty than KDE4 but with more features 20:23 < aiju> GUIs are what people use before they leearn to use the CLI 20:23 < questionable> they're as important as the CLI. probably more so 20:24 < questionable> (for desktop users) 20:24 < kevlar_work> the number of applications which even have a GUI is probably a small fraction of a percentage point 20:24 < ww> guis all went downhill after motif 20:24 < chomp> GUIs are extremely important for users 20:24 < chadkouse> are many go programmers writing desktop apps ?! 20:24 < chomp> but if we're talking re linux, yeah... 20:24 < questionable> kevlar_work: perhaps if you're a linux user, where the average GUI sucks, i could agree 20:24 < kevlar_work> when an application needs a gui, the gui design is important, but beyond that not so much. 20:24 < chomp> i fucking hate X11 anyway so 20:24 < questionable> on windows, the typical GUIs are decent 20:24 < kevlar_work> rofl 20:24 < aiju> hahahaha 20:24 < chadkouse> hahahha 20:24 < aiju> the problem is 20:24 < kevlar_work> you should be a comedian 20:24 < aiju> they are GUIs 20:24 < questionable> you folks are dinosaurs 20:24 < chadkouse> questionable is all blub'ed up 20:24 < kevlar_work> questionable, do you like wizards? 20:24 < chomp> <-not a dinosaur 20:25 < aiju> on WIndows you have 3 dozens programs 20:25 < aiju> what *nix does with 2 20:25 < chomp> i like wizards, but the kind that cast Magic Missile 20:25 < chadkouse> i don't think anyone in #go-nuts is a dinosaur… 20:25 < questionable> linux GUIs tend to suck badly, as a few of you just admitted 20:25 < chadkouse> windows is a dinosaur though 20:25 < questionable> this is not the case with windows 20:25 < chomp> in the future everyone wears space suits and uses plan9 20:25 < aiju> chomp: of course 20:25 < questionable> windows GUIs tend to be good 20:26 < chadkouse> oh you mean since windows started ganking everything they can from OS X ? 20:26 < ww> chomp's magic missile -== HITS ==- questionable 20:26 < aiju> plan 9 GUIs are the only good GUIs 20:26 < chomp> lol 20:26 < chomp> now THAT is comedy 20:26 < kevlar_work> I think apple does some good work 20:26 < aiju> chadkouse: and OS X stole everything from somewhere else 20:26 < ww> aiju's plan 9 *misses* 20:26 < chomp> one of the worst GUIs i've ever used was Xcode's 20:26 < aiju> MSVS is pretty bad 20:26 < chadkouse> OS X stole, windows copied :) 20:26 < kevlar_work> some being the operative word 20:26 < aiju> it has these tab/windows things 20:26 < chomp> aiju, really? it's one of the nicest IDEs i've ever used 20:26 < chadkouse> chomp have you see appcode ? 20:26 < chomp> maybe the nicest 20:26 < aiju> which are NEVER RIGHT 20:26 < chomp> chadkouse, no 20:26 < chadkouse> xcode replaced.. pretty nice.. by jetbrains 20:27 < chadkouse> xcode replacement * 20:27 < chomp> it's hard for me to use anything but vim/commandline or MSVS 20:27 < kevlar_work> I personally like iTunes and the general layout of the mac os (menu bar, with dock on left) 20:27 -!- maragato [~robteix@nat/intel/x-jmueabamiyvysqbx] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:27 < aiju> i hate the mac os menu bar on the top 20:27 -!- Peet__ [~Peet__@unaffiliated/peet--/x-2416233] has joined #go-nuts 20:27 < aiju> it destroys locality 20:27 < kevlar_work> they also do a very good job with hotkeys and screen corners. 20:28 < chomp> i agree with that one aiju 20:28 < aiju> locality is one of the most important thing in a GUI 20:28 < aiju> windows is already bad 20:28 < questionable> i do like gvim/vim 20:28 < chomp> focus 20:28 < aiju> with its menus and symbols 20:28 < aiju> popup menus or get the fuck out 20:28 < chomp> how is locality a problem in windows 20:28 < ww> iTunes [*][*][*] OBLITERATES [*][*][*] GUI's pet 20:28 < questionable> copying/paste between gvim and something else is annoying though 20:28 < chomp> i hate popup menus... 20:28 < kevlar_work> aiju, the thing about menus is that you want to be able to get to them fast, and with them at the top of the screen, you can get to them 3-30x faster (according to ux studies) 20:28 < chomp> yay for HIDDEN INTERFACE 20:28 < kevlar_work> because you can just throw your mouse at them and not overshoot 20:29 < kevlar_work> menus at the top of windows are slower because you have to precisely hit them. 20:29 < chomp> studies by apple research? ;) 20:29 < aiju> kevlar_work: it is 100x faster to use the right mouse button (an aiju study) 20:29 < questionable> that's part of the reason Firefox's tabs are right at the top now 20:29 < kevlar_work> chomp, no, I think it was the navy actually. 20:29 < chadkouse> hehehe 20:29 < chomp> APPLE NAVY 20:29 < kevlar_work> now that would be scary. 20:29 < chomp> conspiracy conspiracy 20:29 < chomp> hahaha all subs would have one button 20:29 < kevlar_work> "OUR BOATS ARE SUPER SEXY RUN AWAY" 20:30 < chomp> you have to press it this way to propel forward 20:30 < chomp> and this way to launch all the nukes 20:30 < kevlar_work> have you seen the touch wheel keyboard spoof? 20:30 < angasulino> mouse + menu = retarded 20:30 < kevlar_work> hilarious. 20:30 < chomp> yes 20:30 < chomp> i also like the microsoft table spoof 20:30 < angasulino> menus work great with keys, but not so much with a pointer 20:30 < chomp> if you havent seen that check it out 20:30 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@host86-174-221-82.range86-174.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 20:30 -!- erus`_ [~chatzilla@host86-186-161-219.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:30 < chomp> or ms surface' 20:30 < angasulino> a pie-like 'menu' would be much better for a pointer 20:31 < chadkouse> i plays my sc2 with only zee mouse ftw! 20:31 < aiju> menus are even worse with keys 20:32 < angasulino> aiju: how so? no risk of falling out of the tiny corridor, accelerators work great too 20:32 < questionable> menus are great with keys 20:32 < aiju> keys as in keyboard? 20:32 < angasulino> yes 20:32 < questionable> and menus tend to (at least in windows) tell you what the shortcut commands are for those items 20:32 < aiju> like down down down right down down down down down down down 20:33 < aiju> right down down down down down right down down down 20:33 < questionable> aiju: seriously? 20:33 < angasulino> aiju: if you use accelerators it's much faster than that... 20:33 < chomp> i personally like keyboard shortcuts but i think for your average user, keys is fer typin'. 20:33 < questionable> how about Alt+F N 20:33 < questionable> (or just Ctrl+N) 20:33 < angasulino> chomp: I don't mean shortcuts, when you go into a menu, a letter for each entry is highlighted somehow (usually underlined), and then you press that key to move there 20:33 < chomp> in the future everyone will wear space suits and tell their computers what to do in plain english 20:34 < angasulino> or use the simple way that aiju said, but that's slow 20:34 < chomp> this is right before the computers attain sentience 20:34 < chadkouse> that sounds like it will take longer 20:34 < questionable> angasulino: "keyboard accelerators", right? 20:34 < angasulino> still less frustrating than with a pointer 20:34 < chomp> at which point we will be obliterated 20:34 < questionable> or "accelerator chars" 20:34 < aiju> a command language beats alt+shift+f ctrl+apple+meta+a ctrl+a i-s-t-h-i-s-e-m-a-c-s 20:34 < angasulino> chomp: and then people who don't speak english will be in trouble :P 20:34 < chomp> you can also just get good at mouses 20:34 -!- zozoR [~Morten@2906ds2-arno.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:35 < chomp> and stop missing, baddie 20:35 < aiju> people who don't speak english will be in trouble anyway 20:35 < questionable> that's one of the main purposes of a menu, imo: to tell you what the keyboard command is 20:35 < chadkouse> i just use 2 mice and an onscreen keyboard… 20:35 < chomp> play some counterstrike for a while, see if you still miss that comparitively big-ass 10-point-font menu item 20:35 < angasulino> chomp: hahaha so the problem is the user? nice :P I see you're great at UI 20:35 < chomp> :) 20:35 < chomp> the problem is always the user, duh 20:35 < angasulino> questionable: discoverability (specially for those almost-never used commands) 20:35 < chomp> the solution is dumber and dumber UIs 20:35 < questionable> yes 20:35 < angasulino> chomp: so you oppose humanity? :) 20:35 < chomp> not at all 20:36 < chomp> it's about context 20:36 < angasulino> why not?? it makes sense 20:36 < chomp> i love my mother. i do not want to write software her her. 20:36 < chadkouse> man I'd love a "dumb and dumber" UI that would be hilarious 20:36 < chomp> for her* 20:36 < chomp> chadkouse, two paperclips go on a wild and wacky adventure? 20:37 < chadkouse> something like that. 20:37 < chomp> they just want to help the world, but they're about to find out that helping the wordl...isn't so easy! 20:37 < chomp> "it looks like you're trying to change a tire! would-- AHH"" *stab stab stab* 20:37 < aiju> i write UIs for users, not for random people 20:38 < chomp> users -are- random people much of the time. 20:38 < aiju> depends on your software 20:38 < chomp> yes, it does 20:38 < aiju> not everyone is writing in-browser flash games 20:38 < chomp> REALLY?! 20:39 < chomp> tell me more about this... "other" software. 20:39 * chomp gets his notepad 20:39 < aiju> notepad.exe? 20:40 < questionable> Notepad actually has good basic design 20:40 < questionable> it's simple and light 20:40 < questionable> pity it sucks though 20:40 < chomp> and featureless.... 20:40 < aiju> true 20:40 < aiju> if it just weren't broken 20:40 < chomp> notepad++ is my favorite text editor outside of vim 20:40 < questionable> like, for example, if you press Ctrl+F when you have no text on the screen, Notepad won't show the Find dialog 20:40 < questionable> fuck you, Notepad 20:40 < questionable> a few years back, Notepad wouldn't let you save a file unless you had at least one char on the screen. they fixed that though 20:40 < chomp> questionable, sounds like an old bug re ctrl+f 20:41 < chomp> just tried it, it's fine 20:41 < aiju> does notepad handle correct line endings yet? 20:41 < questionable> strange. i'm on Win7 64-bit 20:41 < questionable> aiju: no 20:41 < chomp> so am i 20:41 < aiju> haha 20:41 < angasulino> I never use notepad, wordpad FTW! 20:41 < questionable> Wordpad is just terrible now 20:41 < aiju> it's 2011 and windos still uses CP/M line endings 20:41 < angasulino> aiju: that's why I use wordpad 20:41 < questionable> press Enter and you get two carriage-returns 20:41 < questionable> gotta press Shift+Enter for one 20:41 < angasulino> I'm on xp at work :/ 20:41 < aiju> install gvim 20:41 < aiju> problem solved 20:41 < questionable> yeah, gvim is win 20:41 < chomp> aiju, yeah and mac still uses the lone CR 20:41 < aiju> chomp: no 20:41 < questionable> i'm writing my own text editor right now 20:42 < questionable> very simple, but powrful 20:42 < aiju> chomp: mac os x uses \n now 20:42 < angasulino> why gvim? I use plain vim 20:42 < chomp> aiju, bout time 20:42 < aiju> chomp: it has been for some time 20:42 < angasulino> chomp: since OS X... 20:42 < chomp> plain vim > gvim 20:42 < questionable> if i used vim, i guess i'd have to run it in cmd.exe. to hell with that 20:42 < angasulino> questionable: cygwin 20:42 < questionable> true 20:42 < aiju> gvim is less effort than cygwin 20:42 < questionable> i've been using GnuWin32 more lately though 20:42 < questionable> so i don't have cygwin installed 20:42 < aiju> i use drawterm to do serious business 20:42 < aiju> like sed/awk stuff 20:42 < angasulino> I get vim, grep, screen, etc 20:42 < chomp> i do all my serious coding in Logo 20:43 < questionable> does the command line go full screen there, angasulino 20:43 < angasulino> searching for text in code without grep is a pain (Visual Studio sucks) 20:43 < questionable> i find Ctrl+Shift+F in VS pretty good 20:43 < questionable> though i wrote a grep clone recently 20:43 < aiju> why would you write a grep clone 20:43 < questionable> because standard grep is a little sucky in some ways 20:43 < aiju> no xml support? :D 20:43 < questionable> e.g., "wanna match across line boundaries? suck to be you!" 20:43 < questionable> "or learn perl" 20:44 < chomp> does yours do stupid things like buffer the entire file before matching like ive seen a lot of grep clones do? :) 20:44 < questionable> i know grep is line-oriented, but still, matching across line boundaries is a nice feature 20:44 < questionable> chomp: only in single-line mode 20:44 < questionable> also know as "multi-line mode" 20:44 < questionable> but not in normal, line-by-line mode 20:44 < aiju> how much features can you put in grep? 20:44 < aiju> now that's a good question 20:45 < aiju> the sky is the limit, probably 20:45 < chomp> wait a minute... 20:45 < angasulino> questionable: yes, just install rxvt, cmd sucks 20:45 < chomp> you're not the same guy are you 20:45 < questionable> yeah, i am 20:45 < aiju> me? 20:45 < chomp> lol 20:45 < aiju> http://man2.aiju.de/1/grep 20:45 < aiju> these are already too many features 20:45 < chomp> nah, questionable, who used to have some other nick 20:45 < questionable> if you say [ grepm "<body>.*?</body>" *.html -m ], you'll get the bodies of html docs (although this regex might not be good) 20:46 < chomp> probably until he annoyed the piss out of everyone and decided to change it 20:46 < questionable> but it'll read each file fully before doing the matches (because there's no other way, short of writing my own regex engine) 20:46 < questionable> but if you do normal mode, it will read only one line ata time 20:46 < angasulino> questionable: GUI programs tend to suck when regexps are involved 20:46 < aiju> angasulino: have you ever used sam? 20:46 < questionable> angasulino, yeah, my grep clone is a CLI program 20:46 < questionable> chomp: whom did i annoy? 20:47 < questionable> my text editor will have strong regex support though 20:47 < questionable> again, with features like ". matches everything" 20:47 < angasulino> questionable: I meant re: VS's ctrl shift f 20:47 < questionable> oh, okay 20:47 < aiju> questionable: structured regex? 20:47 < questionable> what do you mean by 'structured'? 20:47 < aiju> ah, sorry, structural 20:47 < aiju> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/structural_regexps/ 20:48 * ww emits an irregular expression 20:48 < aiju> ww: irregular expression is what one could call PCRE 20:48 < questionable> i see 20:49 < aiju> PCRE, regular expressions which are no regular expressions 20:49 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 20:49 < questionable> i don't see anything wrong with perl-compatible regular expressions 20:49 < questionable> .NET regexes are perl 5-compatible and they rock 20:49 < aiju> but they are no regexes 20:49 -!- erus`_ [~chatzilla@host81-159-20-228.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:49 < questionable> lookahead, lookbehind, single-line mode. whatever you want 20:50 < questionable> no cryptic syntax 20:50 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@host86-163-247-252.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@host86-163-247-252.range86-163.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Changing host] 20:50 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has joined #go-nuts 20:50 < aiju> haha 20:50 < aiju> how does that look like? 20:50 < aiju> space space digit letter? 20:50 < chomp> no cryptic syntax? lol they are regular expressions 20:50 < chomp> all regexes are cryptic. 20:50 < questionable> like : (?<=foo)bar(?>blah) i think 20:50 < exch> not really 20:50 < questionable> "bar" 20:50 < questionable> oops 20:51 < questionable> matching "bar" preceeded by "foo" and followed by "blah" 20:51 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@host86-186-161-219.range86-186.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 20:51 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@rrcs-24-73-248-196.sw.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 20:51 < ww> i've never been bitten by PCRE or by the theoretical worst case running times of other regex libraries... 20:51 -!- keithcascio [~keithcasc@nat/google/x-qovhphznmnqfbztg] has joined #go-nuts 20:51 < ww> and i've done a lot of ugly regex-based data munging... 20:52 -!- skelterjohn [~jasmuth@140.Red-88-7-208.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 < questionable> regexes can be very graceful 20:52 < angasulino> cheers peeps, going home 20:52 < questionable> tell me, how is this ugly: "gr[ea]y" 20:52 -!- angasulino [c80571e2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.200.5.113.226] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 20:52 < questionable> or "gr[a|e]y" 20:52 -!- preflex [~preflex@unaffiliated/mauke/bot/preflex] has joined #go-nuts 20:52 < questionable> it's beautiful in its simplicity 20:52 < chomp> no it's not, it's just simple./ 20:52 < chomp> and you mean gre[ea]y 20:52 < questionable> second one should've been "gr(e|a)y" 20:52 < chomp> ah 20:53 -!- miker2 [~miker2@64.55.31.190] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:53 < ww> it can get ugly if the data is ugly 20:53 < questionable> how about this: "<html>(.*?)</html>" 20:53 < questionable> beautiful 20:53 < questionable> though it might not work ;D 20:53 < aiju> the worst regex is POSIX regex 20:53 < chomp> beautiful if you don't want to match real html, sure 20:53 < aiju> where [a-z] can match X 20:53 < chomp> heh 20:54 < aiju> s%\\f[BL5]([^\\]+)(\\f.|$)%<tt>\1</tt>\2% 20:54 < aiju> the readability of regex 20:54 < aiju> (it's a sed command, actually) 20:54 < questionable> that's not a PCRE 20:55 < aiju> yes 20:55 -!- hcatlin [~hcatlin@pdpc/supporter/professional/hcatlin] has quit [Quit: hcatlin] 20:55 < ww> the regexp is kind of like the perl, actually 20:55 < aiju> how could you even tell 20:55 < questionable> PCRE regexes don't have to be that ugly 20:55 < aiju> hahahaha 20:55 < questionable> with ugly things like "\\f", whatever that means 20:55 < skelterjohn> beauty is not a good metric 20:55 < skelterjohn> eye of the beholder, etc 20:55 < aiju> it matches a literal \φ 20:55 < aiju> *\f 20:55 < aiju> in the input data 20:55 < questionable> oh, okay 20:55 -!- erus` [~chatzilla@host81-159-20-228.range81-159.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 5.0/20110615151330]] 20:55 < skelterjohn> if you grow used to something, it can become beautiful to you 20:56 < chomp> here's a rather simple regex im using to decompose some crappy text formatting "language" one of our ex engineers left us with 20:56 < chomp> [^[\s]+|\[[^]]+\] 20:56 < chomp> it's simple, and yet it kind of makes my brain bleed when i look at it at first 20:56 < aiju> [\s] 20:56 < aiju> what is this even 20:56 < chomp> it's a .NET regex. 20:56 < questionable> whitespace 20:56 < skelterjohn> \s is whitespace, right? 20:56 < aiju> or [[^]] 20:56 < aiju> wtf? 20:56 < chomp> whitespace character class 20:56 < questionable> not match 20:56 < aiju> ah wait it's different 20:57 < chomp> \[[^]]+\] matches literal [ followed by any non-] character 1+ times, followed by literal ] 20:57 < questionable> escaping [ makes things horrible 20:57 < aiju> i just write literal space, but i guess tastes are different 20:57 < chomp> and it's very simple... but it looks terrible 20:57 < skelterjohn> chomp: I think it's the mixing of [] and \[\] that make it difficult to read 20:57 < chomp> skelterjohn yeah. 20:57 < skelterjohn> *makes 20:57 < questionable> to be fair, though, escaping things in c-strnigs can be horrible 20:57 < chomp> aiju, \s is not a literal space 20:57 < questionable> i agree skelterjohn 20:57 < chomp> it's any whitespace character 20:57 < aiju> granted, space tab 20:57 < chomp> newline 20:57 < chomp> cr, ff 20:57 < ww> questionable 20:58 < aiju> what are cr and ff doing in your input data 20:58 < chomp> there are also unicode whitespace characters 20:58 < chomp> beyond the ascii range 20:58 < aiju> i always pretend these don't exist 20:58 < chomp> and .NET regex is aware of them 20:58 < questionable> aiju: you've never matched across line boundaries? 20:58 < aiju> questionable: well, windows 20:58 < questionable> i do that all the time 20:58 < questionable> oh, sorry 20:58 < questionable> yeah, it'd be lf on unix i guess 20:58 < aiju> i don't write complicated regex 20:58 < questionable> \n 20:59 < questionable> i wish people would standardise a line-ending 20:59 -!- Kahvi [~Kahvi@a91-152-179-229.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:59 < questionable> freaking annoying 20:59 < aiju> people have, windows hasn't ;P 20:59 < questionable> i'd vote for just \n. simple 20:59 < questionable> though irc uses \r\n iirc 20:59 < skelterjohn> it's difficult to convince MS to adhere to standards 20:59 < questionable> i'm not sure why 20:59 < chomp> i use \n on windows 20:59 < chomp> shit even in MSVS 20:59 < aiju> questionable: almost all text protocols use \r\n 20:59 < questionable> msvs keeps adding BOMs to the start of my files 20:59 < ww> some of us use daisywheel printers to read irc 20:59 < questionable> aiju: why? 21:00 < aiju> questionable: no clue 21:00 < questionable> is it a nod to typewriters 21:00 < chomp> that's because they were designed when people used old shitty terminals that required \r and \n for a proper new line 21:00 < skelterjohn> funny story about MS - i'm at a conference right now and someone was making a presentation... half way through the presentation randomly closes and the computer says "wait while we update the system - do NOT power off" 21:00 < skelterjohn> and started counting slowly to 100% 21:00 < chomp> because \n was really just line feed, and \r was really just carriage return 21:00 < skelterjohn> gg ms, you obviously know better than we when the update needs to happen 21:00 < questionable> yeah, i remember using typewriters 21:00 < chomp> now "Standardized" \n is combined cr/lf 21:00 < questionable> you had to line feed and carriage return lol. sucked 21:00 < aiju> the problem was speed 21:00 < chomp> with only the lf character 21:00 < aiju> the terminal couldn't do it in one character 21:00 < aiju> because it would fuck up the timing 21:01 < aiju> UNIX solved this nicely 21:01 < questionable> skelterjohn: yeah, windows treats the user like a moron 21:01 < aiju> the terminal driver just wrote \r\n 21:01 < questionable> to be fair, though, most windows users are morons 21:01 < ww> actually, as late as 1998 we still had at least one machine at utoronto with a line printer for a console (that needed the carriage return) 21:01 < aiju> most people are morons 21:01 < skelterjohn> windows is good for games, so you can shoot at the other morons 21:01 < chomp> skelterjohn that's awesome. windows 7 randomly turns automatic update back on for me 21:01 < questionable> it's like, "oh wow, you've opened a file windows doesn't know abuot!!! you want me to go online and look for an app that can open this?!" 21:01 < chomp> and then i wake up to find my computer has been rebooted in the middle of the night 21:02 < questionable> "HEY, YOU JUST CHANGED A FILE EXTENSION!!!! THE FILE MIGHT BECOME UNUSABLE. ARE YOU SUER" 21:02 < questionable> FUCK YOU, WINDOWS 21:02 < aiju> % mv test.^(txt c) 21:02 < aiju> % 21:02 < aiju> no noise 21:02 < KirkMcDonald> IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE TRYING TO HURR A DURR 21:02 < questionable> I COULD FUCKING CHANGE IT BACK IN TWO SECONDS 21:02 < skelterjohn> lol 21:03 < questionable> aiju: that's a nice command. i ought to try *n?x again 21:03 < questionable> i haven't touched it in years 21:03 < aiju> except it's plan 9 21:04 < aiju> mv test.{txt,c} with bourne shell 21:04 < questionable> oh 21:04 < questionable> that's still nice 21:04 < aiju> the nice thing about ^ is that it's actually string concatenation with a list 21:04 < chomp> what would be nice is a second level of expansion like mv *.{h,hpp} 21:04 < aiju> which does some sort of cartesian product 21:04 < questionable> nice 21:04 < aiju> chomp: like DOS? 21:04 < chomp> but that depends on which order the shell decides to expand 21:05 < chomp> that wouldn't work in dos 21:05 < aiju> move *.h *.hpp 21:05 < aiju> doesn't that work? 21:05 < questionable> hmm, don't think so 21:05 < chomp> how on earth could that work 21:05 < skelterjohn> um - i hope not - that would be horribly ambiguous 21:05 < questionable> windows is a bit retarded here 21:05 < questionable> or dos 21:05 < aiju> i think one OS did that 21:05 < aiju> by passing *.h literally and leaving it to the program to evaluate it 21:05 < aiju> of course it's a horrible clusterfuck in general 21:05 < chomp> mv with pairwise source/target list syntax would be nice 21:05 < skelterjohn> i like that the wildcards don't get into the args 21:05 < aiju> but it allows this one thing! 21:06 < chomp> mv foo1 foo2 bar1 bar2 baz1 baz2 21:06 < aiju> chomp: just write it? 21:06 < questionable> yes, that would be nice 21:06 < chomp> aiju, yeah no shit holmes 21:06 < chomp> JUST SAYING IT WOULD BE NICE OK 21:06 < aiju> this is like four lines of shell script 21:06 < questionable> which revision control systems are you folks using 21:06 < aiju> git and hg 21:06 < ww> RCS 21:06 < questionable> mercurial here 21:07 < skelterjohn> chomp: for f in ['foo', 'bar', 'baz']: exec('mv %s1 %s2'%(f,f)) 21:07 < skelterjohn> ? 21:07 < questionable> it seems to me that hg and git > * 21:07 < skelterjohn> :) 21:07 < chomp> i use tar and magnetic tape for revision control 21:07 < aiju> questionable: pretty much 21:07 < questionable> skelterjohn: which language is that? 21:07 < skelterjohn> python 21:07 < questionable> oh okay 21:07 < skelterjohn> i think exec() does what i implied 21:07 < aiju> python is the perl of this decade 21:07 < skelterjohn> i haven't used python in a while 21:07 < chomp> skelterjohn, yes but the problem is that i've written it so many times (As im sure others have) 21:07 < schmichael> skelterjohn: os.command(...); exec executes python :) 21:07 < chomp> this to me means it should be a standardized feature 21:07 < ww> for f in foo bar baz; do mv ${f}1 ${f}2; done 21:08 < skelterjohn> ah right, thanks 21:08 < aiju> i don't really use anything like that really often 21:08 < questionable> git seems nice and powerful. i just prefer the simplicity of mercurial 21:08 < questionable> they both look good though 21:08 < skelterjohn> git could use a simpler UI 21:09 < aiju> hg requires you to clone for every little thing 21:09 < questionable> mercurial has the record extension (shipped with mercurial) that allows selective committing of individual changes 21:09 < skelterjohn> maybe i should install the new mac UI i heard about 21:09 < aiju> questionable: nice 21:09 < aiju> questionable: have to look at it 21:09 < aiju> there is mq but it is a nightmare 21:09 < questionable> but what do you do in git if you wanna branch; say an experimental branch 21:09 < skelterjohn> git branch experimental 21:09 < skelterjohn> git checkout experimental 21:10 < chomp> yeah but what do yoiu do in git if you want an ice cream sundae 21:10 < questionable> can you delete the 'experimental' branch later 21:10 < skelterjohn> git an ice cream sundae yourself, fool 21:10 < questionable> in mercurial, you can do the same thing, as far as i can tell 21:10 < skelterjohn> questionable: yes 21:10 < aiju> questionable: yes by cloning the entire repo 21:10 < questionable> no, you can create named branches 21:10 < skelterjohn> yeah, hg has branching 21:11 < aiju> "hg branch"? 21:11 < questionable> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/NamedBranches 21:11 < skelterjohn> i don't know how 21:11 < questionable> yeah, 'hg branch' 21:11 < skelterjohn> but i know when you and someone else both commit something and there is a conflict, it makes branches 21:11 < skelterjohn> and you have to merge things again 21:11 < skelterjohn> and googlecode has a pretty visualization for it 21:11 < aiju> skelterjohn: and you lose all local changes in the progress :\ 21:12 < ww> we should really graft branches instead of merging 21:12 < aiju> (or commit them) 21:12 < skelterjohn> ?? 21:12 < skelterjohn> what do you mean you lose all local changes? 21:12 < aiju> uncommited changes 21:12 < questionable> it's not really that the conflict makes branches 21:12 < skelterjohn> you have to commit before you can merge 21:12 -!- squeese [~squeese@cm-84.209.17.156.getinternet.no] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:12 < aiju> skelterjohn: yes 21:12 < aiju> either commit or lose them 21:12 < questionable> it's just the nature of a distributed system that two lines of development are effectively two branches 21:12 < skelterjohn> aiju: i see, ok 21:12 < skelterjohn> yes you're right 21:13 < aiju> i do hg push -f, pull somewhere else, merge, push 21:13 < skelterjohn> or does hg have anything like stash? 21:13 < aiju> turned out to be the easiest way 21:13 < questionable> hg has something like stash. i forgot the name 21:13 < questionable> shelf i think 21:13 < aiju> skelterjohn: in this mq extension 21:13 < aiju> but it's way too easy to mess up 21:14 < aiju> i would like to just merge the thing 21:14 < questionable> there's an equivalence table here: http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/GitConcepts#Command_equivalence_table 21:14 < aiju> haha, i'd rather need that to lookup git commands 21:15 < ww> local changes i almost always end up doing 'hg diff > tmp; hg pull/merge; < tmp patch -p1' 21:15 < questionable> i like that in mercurial you only have to type enough characters to make your command unambiguous 21:15 < fzzbt> can you access hg repo from git somehow? 21:15 < questionable> like 'hg d' for 'hg diff' 21:15 < aiju> questionable: reminds me too much of openvms 21:15 < ww> fzzbt: yes and vice versa 21:15 < questionable> i say 'hg d|dh', where 'dh' is my DiffHighlight program 21:15 < fzzbt> how? do you need a plugin or something? 21:15 -!- pjacobs [~pjacobs@rrcs-24-73-248-196.sw.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 21:15 < ww> fzzbt: yes, called hg-git or something similar 21:16 < questionable> i'll show you my DiffHighlight if you wanna see a simple, clean GUI 21:16 < aiju> you could simply emit console control codes with *nix 21:16 -!- chadkouse [~Adium@rrcs-74-218-87-242.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:16 < aiju> but then i personally don't need rainbows to read diffs 21:17 < questionable> this makes reading diffs a million times easier 21:17 -!- dfr|mac [~dfr|work@nat/google/x-nkghijtsvcpxoouj] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:17 < skelterjohn> i just don't read diffs 21:18 < aiju> just trust the funny commit log 21:18 -!- Fish- [~Fish@9fans.fr] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5] 21:18 < questionable> aiju: http://i.imgur.com/MZS9H.png 21:19 < questionable> that's me refactoring terrible duplicate code 21:19 < aiju> looks similar to piping the whole thing into vim 21:19 < questionable> yeah, gvim is my inspiratino. lol 21:19 < aiju> of course, if you have syntax highlighting enabled, unlike me 21:19 < questionable> my app is better than gvim for this purpose, though. much handier 21:19 < aiju> hu? how so? 21:19 < questionable> syntax highlighting is a lifes-aver 21:20 < questionable> -saver 21:20 < aiju> i'm still alive 21:20 < exch> re you sure? 21:20 < exch> *are 21:20 < questionable> i don't get an annoying "wanna save?" if i can't be bothered to type ":wq!" or ZQ 21:20 < questionable> i can close the app with Esc 21:20 < aiju> *shrug* 21:20 < questionable> i can easily change the syntax highlighting 21:20 < aiju> okay, that's a point 21:20 < questionable> i invoke it with dh rather than gvim - 21:20 < aiju> alias 21:21 < aiju> okay, windows has no such thing, batch files? no clue 21:21 < questionable> my program recognises more diff formats out of the box (e.g., git-diff format) 21:21 < questionable> maybe batch files; not sure 21:21 < questionable> i use git-diff format with hg 21:21 < questionable> much better 21:21 < aiju> i just read plain old diff on my terminal, so meh 21:21 -!- PortatoreSanoDiI [~Marvin@82.84.82.124] has joined #go-nuts 21:22 < ww> aiju doesn't even use less 21:22 < questionable> standard diff doesn't support renames etc. 21:22 < ww> aiju uses more 21:22 -!- nicka1 [~lerp@142.176.0.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:22 < aiju> ww: i don't even use more 21:22 < skelterjohn> he uses cat 21:22 -!- photron_ [~photron@port-92-201-89-31.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:22 < skelterjohn> and reads really quickly 21:22 < aiju> huh? 21:22 < aiju> % hg diff 21:22 < aiju> .. read diff files .. 21:22 < aiju> no, i have a terminal with sensible scrolling behaviour on plan 9 21:23 < aiju> i use less on lunix, actually 21:23 < questionable> what kind of l33t h4x0r uses an os nobody has even heard of 21:23 * ww wonders if there's an implicit cat on the end of every command line 21:24 < ww> i've hurd of plan9 21:24 < questionable> i've heard of gnu/hurd 21:24 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@82.84.95.200] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 21:24 < aiju> hahaha 21:25 < aiju> "an os has to be popular to be good" 21:25 < aiju> are you implying something like that? 21:25 < skelterjohn> how about "an os has to be good to be popular"? 21:25 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@pool-173-77-24-106.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:25 < questionable> "an os has to be popular to be good" is probably true 21:25 < questionable> depending on the definition of 'popular' 21:26 < ww> ... and 'good' 21:26 < questionable> like, if it were so unpopular that nobody wanted to develop it, it'd suck 21:26 < skelterjohn> and "has to be" 21:26 < aiju> questionable: because what? 21:26 < ww> and 'os' 21:26 < skelterjohn> basically the whole thing is nonsense 21:26 < questionable> and user popularity can determine develop popularity 21:26 < questionable> there's no hard-and-fast line rule, however 21:26 < ww> a _ _ _ to be _ 21:26 < questionable> s/line / 21:27 < aiju> i don't really care how many people use the OS i use 21:27 < aiju> i do care that i like using the OS i use 21:28 < skelterjohn> i want other people to use the tools i use because it makes it more likely that someone else will have already done something i need to have happen 21:28 < questionable> which windowing system are you using, aiju 21:28 -!- meling [~meling@12.238.254.22] has joined #go-nuts 21:29 < questionable> skelterjohn: exactly 21:29 < questionable> the more attention linux gets, the 'better' it gets 21:29 < skelterjohn> um 21:30 < skelterjohn> was that an ironic 'better'? 21:30 < questionable> in some cases, 'better' is actually 'worse', but that's not always the case 21:30 < skelterjohn> alright, so did you actually say anything, then? :) 21:30 < questionable> it was an undefined 'better' 21:30 < questionable> the problem is that all words are vague 21:30 < questionable> and life is complex 21:30 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-148-103.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #go-nuts 21:31 < aiju> worse is better. 21:31 < aiju> 23:34 < questionable> which windowing system are you using, aiju 21:31 < aiju> xmonad on lunix 21:31 < aiju> rio on plan 9 (there isn't really a choice) 21:31 -!- mtrichardson [~mtrichard@li22-133.members.linode.com] has left #go-nuts ["Leaving..."] 21:32 < aiju> if you meant windowmanager 21:32 < aiju> my window system is X11 21:32 < kevlar_work> lol. 21:32 < aiju> i almost said there is no choice but there is this g^Hwayland thingie 21:33 < kevlar_work> bad aiju :P 21:33 < questionable> little unix? 21:33 < aiju> no 21:33 < aiju> "linux and other unix" 21:33 < questionable> okay 21:33 < aiju> although i'm only using linux currently, lol 21:33 < aiju> kind of a habit to type lunix 21:34 -!- PortatoreSanoDiI [~Marvin@82.84.82.124] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 21:34 < questionable> (Stallman: "GNU PLUS LINUX!") 21:34 < questionable> lol 21:34 < aiju> haha 21:34 < aiju> (aiju: "FUCK OFF STALLMAN") 21:34 < questionable> Stallman is a crazy man 21:34 < skelterjohn> used to play q3 with a guy whose nick was lunix 21:34 < aiju> that's an understatement 21:34 < questionable> a genius, but insane beyond belief 21:34 < aiju> genius about what? 21:34 < aiju> EMACS? 21:34 < questionable> just a very intelligent person 21:35 < questionable> that's my hypothesis, anyway 21:35 < skelterjohn> ahead of his time, at least 21:35 < aiju> i can't judge 21:35 < kevlar_work> he says lots of very quotable things, I'm not sure how much of a genius he is. 21:35 < aiju> all i've read of him was insane 21:35 < skelterjohn> some things seem simple today, but were definitely not back then 21:35 < questionable> as much as i make fun of him, i think a lot of what he says is right 21:35 < aiju> i think a lot of what he says is wrong 21:35 -!- |Craig| [~|Craig|@panda3d/entropy] has quit [Quit: |Craig|] 21:35 < questionable> yeah, the guy used to edit printer drivers back in his university days, to make printers e-mail people when their print jobs were finished 21:35 < questionable> imagine how goddamn hard that would be back then 21:36 < questionable> i think what he said about pedophilia was pretty weak 21:36 < kevlar_work> probably easier than it would be today; it's the ingenuity to imagine that it was possible and actually execute that's somewhat more rare today. 21:36 < questionable> he essentially made a strawman of typical arguments against pedophilia 21:36 < aiju> pedophilia = GNU software? 21:36 < skelterjohn> i really don't want to talk about stallman and pedophilia 21:37 < questionable> i like that the guy thinks outside the box though 21:37 < questionable> he's not yet another sheep who just follows the crowdsd 21:37 < questionable> -d 21:38 < questionable> ("a sheep" sounds weird) 21:38 < aiju> he looks like a sheep 21:38 < aiju> he has more hair than a sheep 21:38 < questionable> that's his intelligence beard 21:38 < questionable> if you're that clever, the beard if inevitable 21:39 < aiju> it's a weak imitation of ken's beard 21:39 < str1ngs> aiju: X11 is a display server not a window manager. xmonad is a window manager. 21:39 < aiju> if you're really clever you look like doug 21:39 < aiju> str1ngs: X11 is a window system 21:39 < aiju> str1ngs: read more carefully 21:39 < str1ngs> its a display server 21:39 < aiju> you just made that up 21:39 -!- yogib [~yogib@dslb-188-100-000-172.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: yogib] 21:40 < questionable> isn't it called "X Window System"? 21:40 < aiju> plan 9 has one thing 21:40 < aiju> rio 21:40 < aiju> period 21:40 < chomp> x11 is a terrible 21:40 < chomp> and it's a protocol, not a window system 21:40 < aiju> haha 21:40 < aiju> NO 21:40 < aiju> IT'S A TRAP 21:40 < questionable> aiju: don't you ever feel like packing it all in and returning to Windows 21:40 < aiju> questionable: sometimes 21:41 < aiju> then i use windows and whip myself for the thought 21:41 < questionable> i was linux-only for two years at one point (Mandrake). i went back to Windows eventually 21:41 < questionable> the borg got me! 21:42 < aiju> the only thing i use windows for is games 21:42 < aiju> if necessary 21:42 < questionable> to be fair, the main reason i went back was that i wanted to resume my Delphi programming 21:42 < questionable> rather than continue with C++/Qt 21:42 < questionable> Qt was all right; C++ was a PITA 21:43 < aiju> yes it is 21:43 < aiju> but delphi .. not sure 21:43 < aiju> does delphi have function pointers yet? 21:43 < questionable> C#/.NET is basically Delphi/VCL 2.0 21:43 < questionable> not as far as i know 21:43 < questionable> the .NET version probably does 21:44 < aiju> but anyway, i really need to sleep now 21:44 < questionable> okay night 21:46 < chomp> oh there's a delphi .NET now 21:46 < chomp> ? 21:46 < chomp> not that i ever got too into delphi anyway 21:46 < questionable> yeah 21:46 < questionable> Delphi Prism 21:46 < questionable> i haven't touched Delphi for years, personally 21:46 < questionable> since C# came along 21:46 -!- angasule [~angasule@190.2.33.49] has joined #go-nuts 21:47 < questionable> years ago, Windows programming meant either VB (lol), VC++ (yuck), Borland C++ Builder (hmm, not bad), or Delphi (best of a bad bunch) 21:47 < chomp> i remember when delphi was new 21:47 < questionable> the only drawback of C++ Builder was that C++ was involved 21:48 < questionable> i didn't know about it for years. Delphi had some of the worst advertising 21:48 < chomp> back in those days i was too young to afford a real compiler suite 21:48 < questionable> i only knew about C++ Builder 21:48 < questionable> yeah, me too 21:48 < questionable> i'd rely on CDs from magazines 21:48 < chomp> so i used like djgpp and edit 21:48 < questionable> crazy how much the world has changed 21:48 < questionable> now you can update software daily from the 'net 21:49 < questionable> back then, having a five-year-old copy of some software was great 21:49 < chomp> pfft with go you can update hourly! 21:49 < questionable> my dad's friend used to sell pirate CDs 21:50 < questionable> like, a CD containing Visual C++, 3DStudio Max, and so on, for like £10 21:50 -!- gridaphobe [~gridaphob@cpe-74-68-151-24.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:51 < questionable> pity VC++ sucked so much 21:51 < questionable> MFC was a horrible mess 21:51 < questionable> it was cleaner to use the WinAPI directly 21:52 < questionable> to be honest, though, i think it's a shame that C++ was ever invented 21:53 < chomp> eh, i like C++ 21:53 < chomp> it has plenty of drawbacks but it's still powerful. 21:53 < chomp> to be honest there are very few languages i don't like. :p 21:53 < chomp> perl and ruby. 21:53 < questionable> i'm OCD about languages 21:54 -!- chadkouse [~Adium@rrcs-74-218-87-242.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #go-nuts 21:54 < chomp> python and javascript. 21:54 < chomp> even those languages are ok. just not preferential. 21:54 < questionable> i didn't like Smalltalk 21:54 < questionable> annoying, wordy syntax 21:54 < questionable> but it's well designed 21:55 < chomp> i havent played with much smalltalk, but it never looked bad 21:55 < questionable> what i dislike about C++ is that it is two languages in one 21:55 < chomp> how so? 21:55 -!- tncardoso [~thiago@187.58.6.58] has quit [Quit: bye] 21:55 < questionable> it's C, and it's also C++. this is, of course, because Stroustrup designed the language to be popular, not decent 21:55 < chomp> it's C++. 21:56 < chomp> it's not C 21:56 < questionable> is malloc() C++? 21:56 < chomp> malloc is a library function. 21:56 < crest> questionable: 3-4 languages in one. you forgot the c preprocessor cuppled with make to a fixed point function 21:56 < questionable> because that will compile with any C++ compiler 21:56 < chomp> that's not language. 21:56 < questionable> it's a C stdlib function 21:56 < chomp> so? 21:56 < crest> *coupled 21:56 < chomp> dubious argument 21:56 < questionable> the stdlib is part of "C++" 21:56 < chomp> we 21:56 < chomp> are talking about languages. 21:57 < chomp> you know what a language is? 21:57 < skelterjohn> you can write C++ like it's C 21:57 < chomp> you can 21:57 < skelterjohn> it used to be a strict subset, but no longer 21:57 < questionable> the fact is, if you're using C++, the libraries you use, though they may be "written in C++", can do things in many ways 21:57 < crest> skelterjohn: extern "C" { ... }; 21:57 < skelterjohn> it still retains the "feel" that C is part of it, even if technically that is no longer true 21:57 < questionable> they might return a std::string; they might return a char*; they return something else (because the first two suck) 21:58 < questionable> C++ is terribly 'designed' (if that word even applies) 21:58 < chomp> what's wrong with std::string? 21:58 < skelterjohn> it's not strong enough - you need std::rope 21:58 < chomp> bahaha. 21:58 < chomp> just use a vector of strings then! 21:58 < chomp> duh. 21:58 < questionable> sorry, i've forgotten the details (it's been years). i just remember concluding that it was terrible 21:59 < chomp> questionable, well that's a fine argument. i'm convinced! 21:59 < questionable> it was missing some functionality, i think 21:59 < questionable> it's not an argument 21:59 < crest> skelterjohn: apply it with boost::knot and put the result around this->neck(); 21:59 < skelterjohn> there is a std::rope though, isn't there? 22:00 < questionable> another annoying thing was the stdlib naming conventions 22:00 < questionable> all lowercase and underscores. nobody in their right mind writes OO programs with such a convention 22:00 < questionable> and therefore your code would, the moment you used another library, end up a complete mess 22:00 < chomp> hah, i never knew about std::rope 22:00 < skelterjohn> it really is just a stronger string 22:00 < chomp> is that actually in the current standard or just the old STL? 22:00 < skelterjohn> it might not be part of std, maybe boost 22:01 < chomp> it's in SGI's docs 22:01 < questionable> there's a new standadr in the works 22:01 < chomp> so it's definitely in stl 22:01 < chomp> but STL != new standard 22:01 < chomp> so i dunno 22:01 < questionable> chomp: ever notice how people say things like "don't use that feature -- it's evil" 22:01 < questionable> it's because C++ is two languages in one 22:01 < questionable> don't use C features -- they're evil! 22:01 < chomp> no it's not, it's because C++ is a giant language 22:01 < questionable> if they're evil, why on earth are they there in the first place? 22:01 < questionable> the sign of a badly designed language 22:01 < skelterjohn> it's 30 languages in one 22:01 < chomp> giant, veritably humongous. it's still ONE language. 22:01 < skelterjohn> there's the C bit, the C++ bit, the templating bit... 22:01 < chomp> just like emacs is ONE text editor even though it contains multitudes 22:02 < KirkMcDonald> skelterjohn: The preprocessor. 22:02 -!- Dr_Who [~tgall_foo@linaro/tgall-foo] has quit [Quit: ZZZZZzzzzz] 22:02 < skelterjohn> yep 22:02 < questionable> when was the last time you heard someone say not to use a feature of C# 22:02 < questionable> never 22:02 < skelterjohn> how about this 22:02 < questionable> because it's a decent language 22:02 < skelterjohn> Don't use C#. 22:02 < chomp> i use C#. i like it. 22:02 < chomp> i use C++. i like it well enough. 22:02 < questionable> C# is the most graceful language i've seen 22:02 < questionable> just beautiful 22:02 < chomp> haskell 22:02 < skelterjohn> o_O 22:02 < skelterjohn> i kind of like go, but that's just me 22:03 < questionable> for what do you use C++? 22:03 < questionable> just wondering 22:03 < chomp> questionable, well i used it for game development for 10 years. now i'm using C# for that 22:03 < questionable> skelterjohn: i find it hard to use non-OO languages now 22:03 < questionable> okay 22:03 < kevlar_work> people call python beautiful too, and I hope we can all agree that figuring out where a tricky bug is in python can be difficult because they have every piece of sugar imaginable, so nothing may be what it seems. 22:03 < chomp> i would still do low level system programming in C++ or go, but go isn't exactly always an option 22:03 < skelterjohn> i found the transition pleasant 22:03 < skelterjohn> i like not worrying about class hierarchies 22:03 < skelterjohn> i just write code, instead 22:03 < KirkMcDonald> kevlar_work: Python has every piece of sugar? 22:03 -!- Project-2501 [~Marvin@dynamic-adsl-94-36-148-103.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Quit: E se abbasso questa leva che succ...] 22:03 * exch sets mode +q *@* 22:03 < chomp> lulz 22:04 < chomp> any weakly typed language can only score a max of 3/10 in my book 22:04 < questionable> skelterjohn: but what if you come across some code which seems to belong in its own class 22:04 < questionable> and you badly wanna apply the 'extract class' refactoring 22:04 < skelterjohn> OO is a shoe that you jam an idea into 22:04 -!- ShadowIce [~pyoro@unaffiliated/shadowice-x841044] has quit [Quit: Verlassend] 22:04 < kevlar_work> KirkMcDonald, between the data model, duck typing, etc, there's very little that they've left out. 22:04 < chomp> sometimes ideas fit into that shoe, sometimes they don't 22:05 < skelterjohn> as for refactoring, i wrote a tool for that (github.com/skelterjohn/gorf) but i haven't kept it up to date 22:05 < chomp> nice thing about C# is that it's not pure OO. 22:05 < questionable> when they do fit, they fit perfectly 22:05 < chomp> not nice thing about C#, and it's my biggest complaint by far, is that it doesn't have go interfaces. 22:05 < skelterjohn> really? what do you mean, because i'm pretty sure there are java-style interfaces 22:05 < skelterjohn> do you mean no duck-typing? 22:06 < chomp> duck typing. 22:06 < chomp> yeah. 22:06 < questionable> skelterjohn: i'd end up just creating pseudo-OO code 22:06 < questionable> (where relevant) 22:06 < chomp> java-style interfaces are only an inch away from abstract classes, meh 22:06 < questionable> interesting name for a program: 'gorf' 22:06 < questionable> i know it's "go refactor" 22:06 < skelterjohn> GO ReFactorer 22:06 < kevlar_work> my builder was (is?) gofr 22:06 < kevlar_work> lol 22:06 < skelterjohn> :) 22:06 < questionable> oh, "er" 22:07 < skelterjohn> or -er, nothing official 22:07 < questionable> lol 22:07 < questionable> my last cmd line program was grepm. i can barely talk 22:07 < skelterjohn> i guess without the "er" it's an imperative 22:07 < questionable> that's "grep improved". a bold claim 22:07 < kevlar_work> skelterjohn, lol 22:07 < kevlar_work> that's what you're telling it to do 22:07 < kevlar_work> "go refactor blah.go" 22:07 < questionable> yeah 22:07 < skelterjohn> yes, "imperative" :) 22:08 -!- r_linux [~r_linux@static.200.198.180.250.datacenter1.com.br] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 22:08 < chomp> you know, i want that now 22:08 < chomp> i want a universal go utility dispatch named "go" 22:08 < chomp> go compile this 22:08 < chomp> go build that 22:08 < chomp> go suck an egg 22:08 < chomp> etc 22:08 < questionable> call it 'fucking' 22:08 < skelterjohn> "go fuck yourself"? O:-) 22:08 < questionable> "fucking compile this" 22:08 < chomp> :) 22:08 < kevlar_work> yeah, I think the gc tooklit should be merged into one executable. 22:09 < skelterjohn> haha 22:09 < chomp> no fucking is a priority modifier 22:09 < kevlar_work> just because "go compile blah.go" would eb fun. 22:09 < chomp> go slowly compiler <- low priority 22:09 < chomp> go fucking compile <- high priority with warnings off 22:09 < skelterjohn> go carefully compile this <- -Werror 22:09 < kevlar_work> go away // rm -rf $GOROOT 22:09 < chomp> haha 22:09 -!- Wiz126 [Wiz@h229.120.232.68.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 22:10 < kevlar_work> for analogy to the language construct, it would have to do everything in the background :) 22:10 < chomp> haha 22:10 < chomp> who needs stdout anyway 22:11 < skelterjohn> instead of &, prefix w/ "go" 22:11 < kevlar_work> oh no, it use stdout, it just clobbers your shell's. 22:11 < chomp> even better 22:11 -!- Wiz126 [Wiz@h229.120.232.68.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:11 < kevlar_work> again for analogy to the language construct :) 22:11 < chomp> now we're talking 22:11 < chomp> where's my go operating system 22:11 < chomp> no more processes. fuck processes. where we're going, we don't need processes. we have goroutines. 22:12 < kevlar_work> $ go compile blah / $ <-go 22:12 < kevlar_work> er, <-compile 22:12 < kevlar_work> funz. 22:13 < questionable> do any of you read Usenet 22:13 < chomp> i try not to 22:13 < questionable> i used to read it years ago. i started again last night 22:14 < questionable> it's kinda depressing 22:14 < chomp> yeah don't 22:14 < questionable> reading groups like comp.lang.c 22:14 < questionable> comp.os.linux.advocacy 22:14 < questionable> comp.lang.c = clever people with personality disorders 22:14 < questionable> in fact, that applies pretty much across usenet 22:14 < questionable> minus the "clever" part 22:15 < KirkMcDonald> The trouble is Usenet is that you get the interact with the sort of person to uses Usenet. 22:15 < KirkMcDonald> s/is/with/ 22:15 < KirkMcDonald> s/the/to/ 22:16 -!- nekoh [~nekoh@dslb-088-068-016-195.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: nekoh] 22:16 < chomp> s/to/who/ 22:16 < chomp> i finally parsed it! 22:16 < KirkMcDonald> Man, I should really just have tried again. 22:16 < chomp> same problem with IRC< amirite 22:16 < skelterjohn> it was a toughie, for sure 22:16 < KirkMcDonald> Words are hard. 22:16 < questionable> the capitalisation was good, though 22:16 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@201.7.186.67] has quit [Quit: franciscosouza] 22:17 < KirkMcDonald> This is what happens when I type things without paying attention to what my fingers think they're doing. 22:17 < questionable> what i don't get is why everyone's using Usenet for binaries 22:17 < questionable> Usenet is a text medium by design 22:17 -!- sniper506th [~sniper506@rrcs-70-61-192-18.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 22:18 < questionable> and the average person who's even heard of Usenet thinks it's a binary-distribution medium 22:19 < chomp> i was not aware of that perception 22:19 < chomp> of course when i was 14 usenet *was* a great place to get porn, so /shrug 22:20 -!- awidegreen [~quassel@h-170-226.a212.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:20 < questionable> i was about that age when i started using usenet :) 22:21 < questionable> but i used text only. my pron came from the www 22:21 < chomp> the www didn't really exist for me at that time 22:21 < chomp> i mean it did but it was tiiiiny 22:21 < chomp> and people actually sold directories. printed indexes of every website. 22:21 < chomp> that's how tiny it was. 22:22 < questionable> the www was fairly small when i was 14. i suspect you're older though 22:22 < chomp> and webcrawler was my search engine. and i had to manually put the bits into the tubes and push them out to the internet 22:22 < chomp> we wore onions on our belts, which was the fashion at the time 22:23 < questionable> i think google existed in my day 22:23 < skelterjohn> webcrawler was an atrocity 22:23 < questionable> can't remember 22:23 < chomp> it was like the only option 22:23 < questionable> it wasn't very big though, if it did 22:23 < skelterjohn> good url though 22:23 -!- chadkouse [~Adium@rrcs-74-218-87-242.central.biz.rr.com] has left #go-nuts [] 22:23 < chomp> but yes it was terrible 22:23 < questionable> which os were you using, chomp? 22:23 < questionable> i was on Windows 95, i think 22:23 < questionable> or Windows 3.1 22:23 < chomp> windows 3.1 22:24 < chomp> my first C compiler was turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS. on a 386/33. 22:24 < chomp> ah the good old days. i think it was like 12 floppies. 22:24 < questionable> my first programming was with QBASIC 22:24 < questionable> on a DOS computer 22:25 < questionable> it was pre-installed on DOS i think 22:25 < chomp> yeah i cut my teeth in qbasic on an 8088 22:25 < questionable> to be fair, in school we did 'logo' programming 22:25 < questionable> sorry: logo 'programming; 22:25 < questionable> ' 22:25 < chomp> i think everyone must have done that 22:25 < questionable> though that hardly counts 22:25 < chomp> r90 22:25 < questionable> that little goddamn turtle 22:25 < questionable> MOVE RIGHT 22:25 < questionable> or whatever it was 22:25 < chomp> rotate? or maybe it was "t" for turn 22:27 < questionable> QBasic was great. i then moved onto Visual Basic 22:27 < questionable> and i was in awe 22:27 < questionable> then i switched to Visual C++, presuming it'd be 'better', but it was terrible 22:28 < questionable> MFC was disastrous 22:28 < chomp> LYCOS that's what i was trying to think of... christ 22:28 < questionable> i actually quit programming for years because of VC++ 22:28 < questionable> oh, lycos 22:28 -!- dsal [~Adium@208.185.212.98] has left #go-nuts [] 22:28 < chomp> i actually went from qbasic to x86 assembly to pascal to c to c++ 22:28 < questionable> yeah, i used lycos, alltheweb, altavista, etc. 22:29 < chomp> and stuck mostly with C/C++ and assembly through junior/high school and most of college 22:29 < questionable> interesting. i went qbasic, vb, c++, c, asm, delphi (known as 'object pascal' at the time), c# 22:29 < questionable> after the horrors of VC++, i just went lower and lower 22:29 < questionable> until i hit rock bottom (asm) and found my sanity with delphi 22:29 < chomp> we need more languages in this world. 22:30 < questionable> asm was just awful 22:30 < chomp> i like assembly code D: 22:30 < questionable> i'd rather have few decent languages than many so-so ones 22:31 < questionable> i liked the elegance, but actually getting anything done was brain surgery 22:31 < questionable> if you could get beyond the "hello world" stage, you were probably a genius 22:32 < chomp> well in those days you didn't really have an option if you wanted to program video or audio hardware 22:32 < chomp> or hell, even serial mouse input 22:32 < angasule> mode 13h ftw! :) 22:32 < chomp> ^ 22:32 < questionable> hah 22:33 < chomp> ah those days 22:33 < chomp> writing to 0xa0000 22:33 < angasule> I remember when I got my first VGA card, wolfenstein 3D rocked :D 22:33 < chomp> i better go or soon i'll start reminiscing about the 4k demo scene too 22:34 < chomp> cheers! 22:34 -!- chomp [~chomp@dap-209-166-184-50.pri.tnt-3.pgh.pa.stargate.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 22:34 < questionable> i used to love doom, and things like that 22:34 < questionable> i sometimes think those games were better than the ones today, but that's probably just nostalgia 22:35 -!- rlab [~Miranda@91.200.158.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:38 < qeed> how do you pick games today to play there are thousands of them every month 22:38 < KirkMcDonald> qeed: Easy: TF2 is the best. 22:40 -!- franciscosouza [~francisco@187.105.25.184] has joined #go-nuts 22:41 -!- cafesofie [~cafesofie@ool-18b97779.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #go-nuts 22:42 < questionable> that's a good point 22:42 < questionable> sometimes, too much choice is overwhelming 22:43 < questionable> i think this about linux. linux advocates often say "you have so much choice -- it's great", but it seems to me that there is too much choice 22:43 < questionable> which do you pick? gawd knows 22:43 < qeed> distrowatch ranking? heh 22:45 < questionable> lol 22:47 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:47 < questionable> talking of c++, btw, i think it's a travesty that people recommend C++ for beginners 22:47 < questionable> what an awful way to start programming 22:48 < nicka> What is your recommended starting language? 22:48 < questionable> i could recommend C# 22:48 < questionable> very clean and elegant 22:49 < questionable> there are so many problems with C++ that recommending it to beginners is insane 22:49 < nicka> I'm definitely not disagreeing with you 22:50 < questionable> i think only OOP experts should touch C++. they'll can see the problems with it 22:50 < questionable> they* 22:50 < questionable> an expert can see the drawbacks of C++ and try to work around them. a beginner is swamped 22:55 < KirkMcDonald> My first programming language was BASIC, and later QBASIC. From there I went to C++. 22:55 < KirkMcDonald> This was something of a jump! 22:55 < magn3ts> Can anyone give me any idea what challenges I might face with using WinPcap with Go in Windows? 22:56 < KirkMcDonald> Then from C++ I went to Python, and other things. 22:56 < KirkMcDonald> Java's in there somewhere, too. 22:58 < KirkMcDonald> My point being that my first exposure to OOP was from teaching myself C++ using the Stroustrup book. 22:58 < KirkMcDonald> This is, on the one hand, insane. On the other hand, it taught me a lot about the why and how of things. 22:59 -!- kinofcain [~KinOfCain@h-64-105-141-42.snvacaid.static.covad.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:00 < questionable> yeah, but i'd argue that learning oop with a decent language would be better 23:00 < questionable> i, too, learned OOP with C++ (a Herbert Schildt book 23:00 < questionable> i wish i had learned it with python or something instead 23:00 < KirkMcDonald> After learning C++, picking up OOP in any other language was trivial. 23:00 < KirkMcDonald> Learning Python was so very easy. 23:00 < questionable> were you a programming beginner when you learned C++? 23:00 < questionable> you said you'd used BASIC and QBASIC 23:01 < KirkMcDonald> I picked up BASIC when I was 8 or so. 23:01 < KirkMcDonald> I would've been about 13 when I started with C++. 23:01 < magn3ts> likewise 23:01 < magn3ts> I had VB6 between QBASIC and C++ though 23:01 < KirkMcDonald> I think I fiddled with VB4 somewhere in ther. 23:01 < questionable> magn3ts: yeah, i went QBASIC, VB6, C++ 23:01 < questionable> sorry, VB4 23:01 < KirkMcDonald> there* 23:02 < KirkMcDonald> Later some VB6. 23:03 < questionable> i learned OOP with C++, but it wasn't until i came across a well-designed language that i could really figure out OOP 23:03 < questionable> that i could really put it into practice 23:03 < questionable> with C++, the programmer fights against the language 23:03 < questionable> we should be fighting against the domain we're programming for, not against the language 23:05 < KirkMcDonald> Learning C++ was valuable. 23:06 < KirkMcDonald> Not least because I can, in retrospect, look back on the language and know what madness looks like. 23:06 < questionable> i'm sure, though, that C++ scares off many newbies 23:07 < questionable> which is a shame 23:07 < KirkMcDonald> It didn't scare me off, but only because I didn't know any better. 23:07 < KirkMcDonald> I had a computer, a compiler, and a book, and plodded my way through. 23:07 < questionable> yeah 23:07 < questionable> in those days, a book was a very valuable thing. nowadays, you just need the internet 23:08 < questionable> though some books are great 23:08 < KirkMcDonald> Even with the Internet, books are useful. 23:08 < KirkMcDonald> K&R, for instance. 23:08 < exch> books? you mean that strange 'paper' thing they used to have? 23:09 < KirkMcDonald> I just bought a thousand-page hardcover the other day, in fact. 23:09 < exch> that's a hefty one 23:09 < KirkMcDonald> Yes it is. 23:11 < skelterjohn> i had parents who could code 23:11 < skelterjohn> never really used a book except as a reference 23:12 -!- trn [~trn@adsl-065-007-181-160.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:12 < KirkMcDonald> My dad codes, it's why we had the Stroustrup book lying around for me to read. 23:12 < KirkMcDonald> He did APL on a dial-up terminal in the 70s. Fun times. 23:12 < questionable> i find it hard to do both 23:12 < questionable> i seem to either read about programming, or do programming 23:13 < skelterjohn> hmm. certainly i recommend only trying one at a time 23:14 < KirkMcDonald> C++ was also my first real introduction to data structures. 23:14 < KirkMcDonald> The STL seemed like the best thing ever. 23:15 < skelterjohn> C++ was my starting language, except for a brief (and over-my-head at the time) foray into hypertalk 23:15 -!- chomp [~chomp@c-67-186-35-69.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:21 -!- aat [~aat@rrcs-184-75-54-130.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 23:25 < magn3ts> Does "C" not exist in the Windows port? 23:26 < exch> magn3ts: If you refer to 'import "C"', then 'C" is not an actual package. it's a special name recognized by the cgo compiler and only it can deal with that 23:26 < exch> you are probably giving your files to the go compiler instead of cgo 23:27 < exch> in the makefile use: CGOFILES = foo.go instead of GOFILES = foo.go 23:27 < magn3ts> Oh, I was using `gd` in Linux and hadn't paid attention to what it was doing behind the scenes. 23:27 < skelterjohn> gb works in windows :) 23:29 < magn3ts> :S gb, gd, too many choices. 23:29 < exch> descriptive names ftw :p 23:30 < kevlar_work> gofr ftw! 23:30 < magn3ts> Is "gb" to steal the possibly overly used word from ML, more "idiomatic" ? 23:30 < skelterjohn> the go team wants you to use goinstall 23:30 < skelterjohn> kevlar_work: wants you to use gofr 23:30 < kevlar_work> :D 23:30 < skelterjohn> and i want you to use gb 23:31 < kevlar_work> though gofr support for cgo is currently busted. 23:31 < kevlar_work> so. 23:31 < skelterjohn> i recommend you try it out, and then decide if you like it or not 23:31 < magn3ts> last time I looked, goinstall was a bit behind in terms of just hitting "gd" and letting it works it's magic 23:31 < kevlar_work> Don't get too attached to it, because when gomake comes out, you'll probably want to switch to that. 23:31 < skelterjohn> magn3ts: I agree - i think goinstall is not convenient to use for local projects 23:31 < kevlar_work> I don't know about gb, but I'll probably either do something different with gofr or abandon it. 23:32 < skelterjohn> i started to abandon gb, but then i got tired of waiting for the new gomake 23:32 < kevlar_work> (when gomake hits someday) 23:32 < skelterjohn> and my projects still needed to compile 23:32 < magn3ts> meh, compilation, not necessary 23:32 < kevlar_work> skelterjohn, can't gb generate idiomatic makefiles for your project? 23:32 < skelterjohn> yes 23:33 < skelterjohn> why did you prefix that with "can't"? :) 23:33 < kevlar_work> yeah, that's something gofr's predecessor did but got deleted. 23:33 < kevlar_work> skelterjohn, well, you could use that to migrate to just using "make" if you *really* wanted to abandon it ;-) 23:33 < skelterjohn> aha 23:33 < magn3ts> Do you guys use cygwin bash under windows? I get fork/exec acceess is denied when cgo tries to invoke gcc. 23:34 < kevlar_work> lol. I wouldn't know, I don't use windows. 23:34 < skelterjohn> magn3ts: gb works in the dos shell 23:34 * magn3ts grumbles about building gb 23:34 < skelterjohn> with no cygwin/ming/msys install 23:34 < skelterjohn> doesn't need make to build either, install.js 23:35 < magn3ts> what will run that though? 23:35 < skelterjohn> 6g, 6l 23:35 < skelterjohn> you can also just compile it by hand,leaving out doc.go and gb_test.go 23:36 < magn3ts> oh I'm just going to grab mercurial through cygwin and goinstall it 23:36 < skelterjohn> goinstall + windows = problems 23:36 < skelterjohn> in my limited experience 23:37 < skelterjohn> might have been improved / you might have better luck 23:37 < skelterjohn> i'm not a windows adept 23:38 < magn3ts> Nothing is as easy as it should be with windows 23:38 < skelterjohn> i gave it an honest try for my internship this summer 23:38 < kevlar_work> that's why I don't use it. 23:39 < kevlar_work> though to be fair, outside of power-user things like the command-line, windows 7 is noticably better. 23:39 < skelterjohn> i got almost everything working - couldn't use goinstall (but i could download/build them manually) 23:39 < skelterjohn> but i absolutely could *not* get go + opengl working 23:39 < magn3ts> yes, I mean from a dev esp cross platform standpoint 23:39 < skelterjohn> so i put linux on my work machine 23:40 < skelterjohn> everything was so easy 23:40 < magn3ts> So how do I invoke install if I lack make? 23:40 < skelterjohn> for gb? install.js is a script 23:40 < magn3ts> ltr magn3ts 23:40 < skelterjohn> i assume you can... execute it, somehow 23:41 < skelterjohn> i didn't write it 23:41 < skelterjohn> or do you mean for go overall 23:41 -!- cbeck [cbeck@gateway/shell/pdx.edu/x-nytsedbuyjluzhcc] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:43 -!- cbeck [cbeck@gateway/shell/pdx.edu/x-tbpiqnlqjdzfzqrr] has joined #go-nuts 23:43 < magn3ts> wow, running gb yielded "Could not find 'make' in path" and then a complaint about goroutings in deadlock and then a runtime dump 23:43 < magn3ts> lol 23:44 < skelterjohn> eek 23:44 < skelterjohn> the thing about make is a warning, and doesn't affect anything else 23:44 < skelterjohn> i'd like the stack trace, though 23:45 < skelterjohn> i don't have a windows machine, so it's hard for me to test regularly 23:46 < magn3ts> skelterjohn, http://pastie.org/2215226 23:46 < skelterjohn> goroutine deadlock seems strange - off the top of my head i don't think any are spawned by default 23:47 < magn3ts> ls 23:47 < skelterjohn> it happens in the path/filepath package 23:47 < skelterjohn> hmm - i bet it's me not reading the error chan for the path walker 23:47 < skelterjohn> i'll investigate 23:47 < magn3ts> lol, it looks like cgo is hardcoding the slash for gcc. 23:48 < magn3ts> C:/cygwin/bin\gcc.exe 23:48 < skelterjohn> windows shouldn't care if it's a / or a \ 23:48 -!- clr_ [~colin@c-67-183-138-2.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 23:50 < magn3ts> I wonder if I need a non-cygwin gcc 23:50 -!- clr_ [~colin@c-67-183-138-2.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:53 -!- niemeyer [~niemeyer@12.236.237.2] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:54 < skelterjohn> magn3ts: found the problem - i guess no one had ever had an error while running filepath.Walk before 23:54 < skelterjohn> either that or no one cared to tell me about it 23:54 < skelterjohn> i'll push a fix in a minute 23:55 < magn3ts> I'm beginning to wonder if cross compiling would be easier. This is how it always go when I start getting to the, maybe I can pkg this for windows, part. 23:56 < skelterjohn> i don't think you'll have much luck cross compiling a cgo pkg for windows 23:56 -!- moraes [~moraes@189.103.188.201] has joined #go-nuts 23:56 < skelterjohn> i pushed the gb fix, i'd appreciate it if you pulled and let me know if it works or not 23:57 -!- miker2 [~miker2@pool-108-16-20-28.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #go-nuts 23:57 < brandini> I wonder if the michael nelson who did goforms is the same mike nelson I went to high school with 23:58 -!- gnuvince [~vince@ip-96-43-233-174.dsl.netrevolution.com] has joined #go-nuts 23:59 < magn3ts> skelterjohn, :/ is there an easy way to get a snapshot without installing merc? 23:59 < skelterjohn> install git? :) --- Log closed Fri Jul 15 00:00:01 2011